Stephen Drew00:06


Will Ridgway00:07

Good afternoon, everyone.

Jack Moran00:10

Hello, welcome to the chat guys. Um, my name's Jack Moran. You might have seen us last week. I've got Stephen Drew here with me and we'll reach way. We are the architecture team at the Architecture Social. Um, we've also worked for McDonald's company for some time. Why don't you give us a bit, um, for anyone who wasn't here last week, Stephen?

Uh, well, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself before we

Stephen Drew00:33

get started? Sure. So I was a part two. I worked in industry. I worked at EPR architects for a few years, and then for the last six years, what I do is I specialize in architectural recruitment. We've worked with everyone from Grimshaw desire, deed, and as well as that, some really, really good clients like som down to as well as smaller Architecture practices.

Will Ridgway00:56

Hi, I'm well, it's, uh, I've been working, um, as a recruitment consultant and McDonald's company for the past year alongside you were working under your guidance and you have been recruiting for a lot of AIG, 100 and, um, companies outside AIG, 100 for the past year, working from parts, uh, twos all the way up to senior.

Stephen Drew01:19


Jack Moran01:21

So I've worked alongside both of these lovely gentlemen for, uh, just over a year now. Um, I've worked with some agent 100 practices, mainly inside London, a few small practice outside of London as well. Um, I also have the joy of doing a lot of the support roles as well in architecture practices be that HR practice managers or office managers.

So today we've got a interesting topic to discuss. We are going to be talking about the duty. Don'ts of the portfolio. Know this is a big thing, isn't it? Stephen, because you know, how many, how many jobs require a portfolio? You know, most of it is all done on the CV. Isn't it? By the architecture to have to go, I guess, a little bit further because the portfolio is, you know, your bread and butter, isn't it?

Stephen Drew02:03

I think compared to maybe a traditional. Uh, CB application, whether it's an accountant or something like that in architecture, you need the saving and you need the portfolio. The CV is the kind of a core, it's the, it's the spine. It's, it's the it's, it's the center of all your professional experience. The portfolio is kind of like a window into who you are as a designer and what you have done.

And it, it kind of expands on everything in the CV. So the idea the CV is. That they can read and assimilate or your professional work and all your experience in the industry quite quickly, the portfolio is seeing that visualizing then, and it should almost be like a story and it should encapsulate your career.

So that ideally you want to go with what you've done professionally at the start and your best projects. And you want to explain and give the reader an insight into what you've done, what you're about and who you are as a designer. Now there's two apps, two versions of a portfolio in my head. There's the one you take to the interview, which is K is the chance that you get to go through with a potential employer, all the stuff you've done.

And the other one is the online version, which is called a sample portfolio. And the sample portfolio is a little bit more like a taster. It's a little bit more like an insight into who you are to kind of. Get the person to bring you in for an interview, because what you can't do is you can't, or you should not anyway, send through 50 to 60 sheets online.

The person will simply not finish it, but that is my definition of what a portfolio is. Um, w well, do you think that's a fair.

Will Ridgway03:50

I think that's pretty fair with, there's a huge difference between CVS and portfolios and the fact that on a particularly as well, like online, if you want to look to find some help from CVS, there's lots of it because everyone, every job, every profession, you know, you need a CV to apply for most part.

And obviously imagine football day, for example, but we're talking. Normal level here, but, um, but portfolios, it's much more concentrated to specific industry. And so there's less help out there. And a lot of people phoned me up and they always ask about what do you need in a portfolio? And it's quite, it's quite, it's quite broad.

There's not much help out there. So hopefully the, what we talk about here is going to be much very helpful to explain that and give you some sort of guidance, but as a big distinct difference between that your sample port. Which is what you use to say. Uh, two companies, uh, as application, and then also get design portfolio, which you send, which you have with you in the interview.

Hopefully we'll, um, we'll show the distinct differences between

Stephen Drew04:55

the two. Um, but the one thing I'd like to add before we jump into Jack is that there's no one way to do. Uh, portfolio there's no it, because the thing is it's down to what you want to express them, what everyone has done in industry and based upon your work experience, it would be very, very different.

So what I'm going to talk about is what I think makes a portfolio more effective in general, that being said, sometimes you can still do something which breaks some of the rules and is quite impressive. I think they'll right now, especially in the current climate that. Well, we need to do is talk about the techniques and the stuff in portfolios that it's going to be more effective, right?

The things that are going to appeal to the most amount of employers are going to save you time and ideally get the point across and who you are to get that person to meet.

Jack Moran05:51

Excellent. Okay. Brilliant. And so, well, the first point we wanted to sort of bring up, I guess, break down is what you sort of touched on earlier, Stephen, about the length of our portfolio.

Um, so, you know, for example, I mean, graduates, they might not have this problem so much. However, there is always that problem of, you know, just putting content on it for the sake of it. So, you know, for the graduates, let's start with that. What, you know, what are the dangers, what are the recommendations that you've experienced about keeping that portfolio, the right lens?

You know, the concise. Yeah.

Stephen Drew06:21

So think of the sample portfolio of the best hits. Okay. Think of it. Like you're a band and we've released five albums. You're not going to get someone to listen to five albums all in one go, they get bored after one and who knows, right. Some of the best stuff, some of the best songs.

So you've got to think of it as the best hits. You really got to hit them, smack them in the face and grab people's attention really quickly, because we are in an environment where people are busy. There's the person who will be looking at your CV. They might be in a taxi, or they might be out more likely right now, there'll be at home with kids where the wifi is not working and it's not fast.

So file size and length is all important stuff. So I would argue, and I just picked the, one of the question. 10 to 15 pages. And even then 15 is pushing that I wouldn't. When you designed them a sample port for. I think of it, like check tech, um, checkboxes and tick boxes, where you've just got to go for this checklist and you've got to go, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

And you've got to hit people really hard. Think of it like an assault and their attention. You've got to grab their attention with some really strong professional work. Show them really intricate. Details. You've done anything on site. Give them an overview of a project and tell them exactly what you've done.

What was the project? What was the RIBA stages? What was your responsibilities and your, if it's your academic work, as you've just graduated and you want to put that there, start, you've got to start with your strongest work and you've got to get them hero images, and you've got to put them up and you've got to explain what you've done on the project, what it was modeled then, and then also you want to go through and take that.

Sections details, elevations, rather models. We want to take all this stuff. What you do not want to do in a sample port probably is repeat stuff. So you've got to think 10 pages. Opportunities and press some of them. Don't cram it all in, because remember you can expand upon it in the interview. That is the idea in the end, you should have about 30 pages.

You don't have to go on too long and you want to, you're going to go into it in more detail. The sample is a bit like if you're at the festival or something, and you're the band where you're gong on stage and you're playing with someone that they've never heard you before. And then, you know, in the end, Then you talk, then you expand the prominent all, but what, what do you think?

Well, my analogy is that a good one on, yeah,

Will Ridgway08:45

I, I think that's the best way to view it, to be honest, because I mean, I get calls all the time and they ask, uh, you know, how many pages should it be? And that's a difficult question to answer because there is no right answer to how many pages is you should be.

You obviously don't wanna make it too long, but at the same time, you don't have to be too up. I think it largely depends on the contents that you have. So, for example, if you're quite, um, you know, if you're just coming out of university, chances are you probably not got much, uh, professional work experience and therefore not that much work that into the portfolio.

And so therefore it's important to, um, still include that work and includes a nice balance of your education work as well, but then still not make it too long. I, to be honest, I think. I think anything above 10 is probably pushing, starting to push the boundaries of the length of a sample portfolio, because you do want to keep it concise.

And at the same time, you don't want to include so many pages that when you do get to an interview stage, you don't want to end up, uh, the interviewer to be seeing the same pages over and over again. And they've already seen on it as a sample portfolio. So it's important to keep. Get your best works, but then you also want to have the elaborated, uh, elaborated pieces saved.

So for the interview stage as well. So that is still interesting, interesting, um, parts of the project you can still show in interviewed. So I see it as more of a synopsis of each project you want to include. So, you know, if you've got your design skills, you want to include that in one included. Any technical detailing skills, uh, drawings that you may have may have done, um, basically keep it quite broad.

And, um, but at the same time, you know, you don't want to be too lengthy. I mean, 15 pages. There's nothing wrong with it. I just think.

Stephen Drew10:40

You know, sometimes fighting sometimes less is more. And, uh, and you know, I think then as well, the other thing that I really like, what we were saying is that, remember if you don't necessarily have the professional work yet draw parallels in your academic work, to what you're doing professional.

So if you haven't worked professionally yet, put a detail in, put stuff in that the employer is going to use, you know, software, weather models. Again, this is the kind of thing that you want to give a taster off because in your portfolio you can expand sometimes a really good sample portfolio. It's going to be five or six pages in there where it's just all killer, no filler.

And I think it's the ultimate thing. If you feel that a page is not straight. You're stronger off without it. Think about the meaning of every page. What, um, every time you look at a page, you go, what am I trying to convey here? Okay. I'm trying to convey that. I worked on my part one and I did this project, which was a school.

It was an education scheme at this RIBA stages and this value and on that I use rabbit. And on that I used, uh, freely. Okay. You caught that in that's the message is really strong in your academic work, you would say. And my final. This is my design fees. This is a bit of an over there, and here's the stuff that I have done.

I did use Reddit modern. Then I did this, I did this technical detail. I did this construction drawing and that's really what you want to go on. The other one that I would want to mention is if you're an app, if you're a part one in particular, you really do not need to send off your, the work you did in your first year.

At time, you're on your third year, you're a lot stronger, right? So you don't need to do that anymore. I would put the emphasis on your third year's work and send that across. So, so the summarize sample portfolio, keep it in a sample. So it should be in the true essence of the word. A few pages find the 10 sheets really that's where you should be sending.

And then you're in your design portfolio. Take person. 15 to 50 pages. And not huge a ones. I think a free is the way don't rely on just printing stuff out and sorry, just to put in stuff on a tablet, because you can go into there and you can have reflections and all of this stuff. So always take something print near out at a free and ring binder.

You don't need to spend a hundreds of pounds on a portfolio. Something really clean and clear

Jack Moran13:19

is a. Good question. Steve is just coming on the topic of that. So, you know, last week we were talking about, um, the portfolio and how you, like you said, with your dissertation, you'll take it to a stationary shop and get like ring binded, you know, nicely presented when it comes to the sample portfolio.

Would you do like a cover page, a content page, you know, to almost, um, a company, which is

Stephen Drew13:39

just to be, just to be clear the sample portfolio. It's a really good question because sometimes people would like to hand them to employers. The reality is you're going to be just doing that digitally now. Okay. And especially, it's going to be really hard right now to physically send your CV in portfolio anywhere.

And I was been watching a few videos lately and an employer will always say that they love a physical portfolio from a student and a CV. And that's nice. However, my, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? The, the war, how I feel about it is that you have to go for the, the, the thing that you can do and spend the time in the most and get the maximum results.

So I worry right now in this environment that actually walking around a, to B, especially when we're not even sure. Offices are open or not. It's not, it's not, it's not going to be a good use of time. So the format IC it is that you send your CV file and you send your sample portfolio online to as much employers as possible, and you do the research on them and you send them a beautiful little email with that attached.

And then you follow up a phone call and to answer your question of what should be in then I think is, so if it's 10 to 15 pages, five to 10 pages, then we're looking at a few. Uh, solid as right. And you don't need to repeat stuff in, then you don't need to put the CV in it again. I think you either put the CV and the portfolio and the sample portfolio all is one doctor.

Which when I look back, that's where I actually did. Or what you do is that you, you sat them, you have the, you have a very clearly marked, so in the actual email, you will have the tax body. Then you have the. The CV attachment and put your name on it. That's one thing that I see people not do all the time.

Cause this guy, if he's got his computer and he's got the CV version too, they don't know who that is. So put in Stephen, Drew, CV, Stephen, Stephen Drew portfolio. And then if you've got references, but Stephen Drew reference now would be a four sheet with whoever's on there. But what do you think, well, is this about the ideal format or what you think.

Will Ridgway15:52

Yeah. So I, I I'm, I see a lot of people that do a lot of, um, title pages and the contents page. So that's quite helpful, um, in terms of having a look through. But I think that's generally, from my opinion, I think that'd be generally better to. For your design portfolio, as opposed to your sample portfolio, um, because you want to get straight to the point.

Um, w w when you, when you look, when a employer looks at your portfolio, they'll just go top down. If they see a contents page, they're not going to be like, oh, let's go to page, uh, whatever to have a look at it. They're just going to go top down. So I think it's probably best just to leave that out. Maybe you can do just a quick title page, where it has your.

Yeah, your contact details as well. Um, I wouldn't go too much and I wouldn't put too much effort into that. The effort should be all on the portfolio. Uh, so that you can, as soon as you get to the second page or even the first page, you get straight to the point and you see the first piece of work, which is usually your most latest piece of work or what you may consider the best piece of work, whichever fits the description, whichever fits the bill.

And then you then go in sort of chronological order. So for example, if you're a uni student, you'd include your latest piece of work, um, at the top and then go downwards. And like Steve said, you don't particularly need to put in your first year works in all, you know, you don't, you don't have to include every single piece of work that they've done.

Uh, you know, you can keep. Short and sweet. You don't have to, if there's some stuff you've done, like early on, you know, you know, you're not particularly fond of, you can still just leave it house. It doesn't have to be everything. It's just a few selections of the best that you've done. Just to give an idea to the employer of the type of work you'd have done the type of what you capable of and the type of work that you could potentially, um, recreate.

Stephen Drew17:40

I think that's it. I think we naturally, and I did as well, because, so when you start with a portfolio, your natural reaction is to put everything you've done in, right? Because you will you'll you want to tell the employer the full range of stuff you can do. Well, I've learned over the time of going from Oxfordshire to recruitment is, is that Edison is key.

And the reality is if you can do something once I know you've got that skillset. So once you've demonstrated that beautiful acts in the metric, then fantastic. I know you can do that. And then if you've got a few examples of a rabbit model, Within the, the project then within the portfolio, I know you can do that too.

So the trick is edit things down five to 10 pages, which are really concise and clear to me is a lot better. Remember that as well as other practical stuff out event, they won't be printing so many pages. Okay. The file size is going to be shorter, and this is all the important stuff on first impressions.

In the design portfolio, you can go to town and you can get the most expensive, beautiful paper. And you can have 30 sheets, which shows stylist nice, balanced story, which you can weave over through the interview. That's absolutely fine. And from the grain, well, I actually did from my interview is that when I went from my one in person, I went to hubs, Reaper graphics, which is a store.

And I printed out all my work in. So it was an AFL book. Well, I'll ring bound. Got it. On my shelf, gathering a bit of dust in there, but the thing is, is that it was a talking point and, um, oh, I've gone blurry. Sorry. Um, but basically that's uh, so I was speaking to on, on, on Sunday with my friend, who's an associate at BDP and he'd have the book as well.

And it was the fact that he printed out his book and went to a employer who had high-end residential projects and the empires. This is amazing. Basically what I can do is why don't we, every time we build a building, we give the client a book of the building and it is exactly like your portfolio. And therefore that portfolio got in the interview because of the way he beautifully.

The, when he sent up the sample portfolio, which secured in the interview though, that's this five to six pages online, which is all killer, no filler to the point and gives them over them on the overview and the end in excitement of who he is to get him in. Yeah.

Jack Moran20:22

Okay. A couple of questions come in as well, just to add onto it.

And the first one is asking, uh, is it, is it wise to include any group work that students might have done? MBA three? You might be one for that,

Stephen Drew20:35

Stephen? Yeah. Free. Okay. So group work. Yes. Very important. I think group work, but when you've done group work, say it's school. Group work is good because actually, if you think about it, it means you can work as part of the team.

And it's very rarely and architecture, and this is a small project that actually you're going to be doing it all on your own. You're going to be working with people. So there was a really good skills. So I would definitely do that and credit it. Or why do you want to do though is outline your responsibility and hopefully you did do some stuff and you want just that guy in the corner who was like, you know, trying to try to.

Tack on going. Yay. Well done guys, but you suppose showing what you did on there? Cause if you said, look, I pitched as part of the team, I did the rendering side and what we did is together. We work together and we project a coordinated the project against the deadline. That's all really good life skills.

And this is stuff that we do as a team now, even in recruitment, isn't it because. Well, when you, when you work in real life, is that, so for instance, me and well we'll work on a particular role and they'll need this help on some staff and I will help them with other things. And so teamwork demonstrates that and the, see, even what we're talking about right now is a really good point to talk about in an interview.

And then you can build that up from the portfolio. So the, the answer is yes, you should put it in and you should. Not ages, but briefly who was involved then names and what your roles and responsibility was. Who, what, where, when, why, who am I? What was the project? Where did we do it? When, why? So meaning responsibility.

Does it mean if you, if you start to break things down into them, then it gets really interesting and employable. Yeah.

Will Ridgway22:16

Uh, completely great. Uh, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head that,

Jack Moran22:21

um, it's quite a big thing. If I could just add something because well, um, with the whole, you know, teamwork and separate responsibility, I think that is really important to distinguish between what was so low and what was, you know, in a team.

Um, because too many times we've all seen, uh, portfolios and CVS where it's essentially. You know, I I'd done this, I've done that. I'd done this. I had done that and it makes it sound like the candidate almost drove the whole project themselves. Um, so I think going back to your point is, is really important, Stephen, you know, to actually say what was in a group and if you enjoyed the group work as well, but then also putting your solo

Stephen Drew22:52

responsibilities, you know, what little life lesson, like talk to Steve moment.

So I'll play it. I'll put everyone to sleep. But I remember when I did my part to. And I went and you could do stuff in a group on your own. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to do it on my own. Cause I was at the time I was like, I want to control every element of the project. I've got great idea.

And all the people who did a group work together got first. And I really struggled and I had my lowest mark of the whole year. So I ended up with two one, but I think for that, I scraped the low to two. And so the point is, is. There is something about strengths and numbers. So group work, absolutely. Put it in as fun.

I think. I think it's great. So what else have we got to go? Because I think we've hit the nail on the head about the sample portfolios and we can always return to that, but maybe we should talk about. Design portfolios and me Chanel one, though, I'm an expert on how to do a design portfolio in the old physical world.

It is going to be very interesting in the new COVID era. And I've got a few ideas from it and I would echo is that best imagine now, right? Like the way you're watching online and the way we could, we could demonstrate, and we could, we could share. Documents, I think long documents in this online world is the death of your, of interest.

Okay. If you've got this long slide show on, I probably would be looking around on my phone, not engaged. And I think that it's the same thing of, so maybe in the old world where a physical interview, you could get. Some more pages beyond the, on the table, because you can flick through it if people are losing interest.

Cause that's the thing in the internet. You it's almost like you can gauge the person's. How, how excited they are. And, and, and, and then you stay on the sheets a bit longer when people are interested and you move past things, which are less of interest to the, to the interviewer, but now we're in online world.

So it's going to be very hard to read that because we're looking at digital pixel versions of us. So again, I think less is more right. I really, really do. Cause you can always follow up. If they were interested in one page, we've stopped after the biggest downfall you can do on a portfolio in an interview.

And we will do another one of these on interviews with portfolios, the crickets navigate stuck on one page. Right. And it happens all the time. People can get stuck on one page talking about. The, the meaning and the intricacies of the design, the first of one project. And you can spend so much time on it.

And you've got to think that in an interview you have an hour or something like that on the online, the sample portfolio, you've got a few seconds like the CV to impress someone, and then they get more time in the interview. Right. You've got a few minutes before you lose interest, right? There's a few examples and well, we obviously will be respectful to everyone.

We know, but as, as you know, this one or two times when we've had candidates who go to an interview and if they talk too long and, and, and spend too long on one or two pages in the portfolio, the whole interview runs. Too far too long. And the interview was I'm not interested. And so with the portfolio, you have to think of it.

Like as a narrative, you got to think about. You're pacing and time. And you've got to look at the document and think one minute on this one, two minutes on this one, uh, if I was explaining that and if so, can someone look through it and pick up information quickly and go through? Is it clear? Is it concise?

Make sure the funds are illegible not too much tax. Do you don't want to overwhelm me? They'll make things too small as well. Let the pages breathe and think about it. Like we're calmly set in. And you walking me through it and that's the. So it's real relaxed and excited, and you're going for your projects.

And every page is like a mini treat. They, they let you flick through it together. And wow, there's an example of a Axona metric, a BIM model, and you're all excited to talk about it and what you did at uni or what you did in industry. And that's the pace of it. You don't want to throw everything out there.

And at the same time, what you don't want to do is have it. You need a thesis and, or, uh, you know, you need to be a quantum physicist to understand what's going on, but that's my opinion. And, uh, so at that, I, I'm more interested on a clear and concise portfolio that is, understand the bone legible. And when you read it, it feels light and easy and exciting.

Not blank when I say light and easy. I mean, it's that, it's almost a pleasure to go through. It's like an exciting book. It's like a, I call him the, that you're interested in and you go to the end and you're like, my gosh, this person we've got to hire them because check it out. It was great. It wasn't too much.

Wasn't too little. Are you excited for my portfolio? Well,

Will Ridgway28:27

Yeah, I've seen your portfolio. So

Stephen Drew28:30

which when Paul went to prop two, oh, I put Paul one on the, on the website, Architecture Social, you can leave a comment and say, if you tie on me,

Will Ridgway28:41

well, I don't disappoint anyway. While I was why I wanted to, um, the way I like to see interviews while I was in like the portfolio itself, is that.

It's like a presentation or even a, um, even a test maybe without the sort of pressure that those two generally have. But if you go back to school, for example, and you have to do your mass tests or whatever, you don't wanna spend one, uh, the whole. Oh, one question you want to make sure that, you know, if second too long on one particular question you do want to move on so that you can cover the whole thing to give yourself a better chance overrule.

And I think that's quite important. And of course, when you're in your interview, you know, whoever you're being interviewed by, we'll ask you questions about particular projects. And of course you will want to elaborate, but you've got to be conscious of the time. So you don't have. Giving too much details about one particular project and then leaving out one of your, uh, one of the works that you do want to show off at the end when they run out of time.

And generally they're going to be about, you're going to have about an hour, less than an hour, to be honest, to go through your portfolio. Um, as soon as the interview starts, it's not straight to the portfolio necessarily. So you do want to keep an eye on that. That's one of the reasons why as well, in an interview, you start with your best works at the beginning, so that if you do end up accidentally running out of time, at least you've covered the works that you want to.

Um, you know, the words are going to be the, the sellers to, uh, whoever you've been interviewed. And I think as well, when it, when it comes to how you present your portfolio, you can obviously have it bounded, uh, or bind, uh, done all the right word. Is that where you can just flip through and you can, you can, you can skip pages as well.

You don't have to go for every single page. You can move over. I've seen people as well, where they just have loose a free sheets, which, uh, it's, it can be good. As long as you've got some sort of order to. And

Stephen Drew30:48

sweaty fingers and stuff, and it will panicking with sheets flying around everywhere.

Will Ridgway30:53

Yeah, exactly.

I think as long as you, you, you, you have another book what's good about it is that you can grab a piece of paper and you can flip through and change the order slightly in order to fit the conversation. Um, so that's one of the best things about it, but, um, yeah, I would keep, um, when you're going through a portfolio, Half as much, you do want to have a lot of information there, but you don't necessarily have to talk about all of it.

It's there as a backup in case you're the interviewer us. Can I see more of your technical work for this particular project? And you're like, yeah, sure. Here it is. So. I mean, I'm sort of treading a little bit on interview, uh, how to do interviews, but it does relate to the portfolio.

Stephen Drew31:33

It's fine. I think it's, it goes hand in hand.

So I think, I think you're bang on well under and remember, and that as well in an interview, for instance, What you can do when you've got more experienced on the line is you can actually even bring what you can start separating your works into different portfolios. You can have a professional portfolio, you can have some of your academic work almost as another booklet because you might not even look at it when you're, when you've got more experience.

And then where you can also put your technical work or some technical examples. Work in there. So, so let's pretend you work on a project with the stages three to four. You could do that. And that's what I was going to say with brass question here about Love's drawings and so forth, because I think it's really important to show.

Drawings you were involved and it might be a nice idea for you to almost put it in a separate portfolio. You could put a little image of a GA that you were involved in, which is in the portfolio. And then maybe what you want to do is you could show case you could even print out a package in a separate document and take that long to demonstrate all the technical stuff you've done.

Cause the cause in an interview. And it's very much about because your, your portfolio. It can speak. If it can speak for yourself, then you've got a strong portfolio. Chances are though you will need to visually go through your portfolio. Uh, call or now a video or in person. And you're almost going to carry the person on the journey with you got to show them insight.

And so that they get excited about who you are. And the thing is, is that sometimes the conversation can flow in different ways because we're all human. It's like this whole topic the way without me and the boys though, is that it's not scripted because we know the main points we're going to go. But the conversation flowers and the, what I like about that is that then you and me, then there's a genuine conversation.

So it comes from an unscripted place. And I think that that's the same way. We've you CV, you have to re you have to, you have to, for instance, Uh, practice the main points. What you want to do is speak from the heart about what you do, and then it organically flows. And so what you can do is with the flow of go, you can then if the, if the conversation starts going towards the work that you've done and the GA's, you've done an industry, and they want to talk about that because they're interested in that, then what you can do is say, well, interestingly, what I've done is.

The drawings in a separate document in case you want to look and they go, oh yeah, fantastic. And you go, yeah, no problem. Okay, let me bring it out. And then you go, is this drawing, use that drawing and then. You've got the conversations flowed really well. And that is the key. And that's the thing, it's, we've all this, the portfolio needs to support you getting the job and conveying to them that they want you on the team.

Right. And so there, it's kind of goes back to what you asked at the start Jack before. What is the best way to do the portfolio and the best way to do the portfolio is the best way that they get excited about you. And the few things that we're talking about is that all long portfolios exhaust the vom and then they will be this enchanted and that's what we want to provide.

And so a successful portfolio to me is one that, uh, fuels. Charlie for the go through that, then you start getting really excited by the person and then you want to hire them because you think, oh my gosh, if the person that can do this portfolio is talking to me here is going to be like this in my office.

They're going to be a massive assets. They're going to be someone I want on my team. This is someone I want as a director in the future. And that's who they're going to hire.

Jack Moran35:42

Excellent. And so question I wanted to put, so both of you, you know, throughout your time in recruitment, what would you say is the number one common mistake?

You know, that you've seen in people's either sample or, or design portfolios that you could, you know, advise some of the graduates to just steer clear off some that you've seen, you know, so many times that you want to bang your head against the wall every time you do see it,

Stephen Drew36:03

what do you think? Well,

Will Ridgway36:06

Um, it's a difficult question because unlike CVS, I don't think there's a key thing that everyone makes a mistake on.

I think, I think what I would like to bring,

Stephen Drew36:18

oh, I see what that will wind you up. Well, actually, I'm going to let me have a bit of fun. What about files? Which are huge in size and the drawings don't load.

Will Ridgway36:28

Oh yeah. I don't know how you'd, I don't know how you fix the drawings. It's not loading because I'm not a tech Wiz, but I don't know how you fix that, but know the file is.

It's a big issue.

Jack Moran36:39

That's compressing, isn't it? I think, you know, I've seen that before when some people will like compress images, uh, Stephen can correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, when you're exporting like PDFs and stuff, aren't you,

Stephen Drew36:50

you're on to something here. Compression is a big thing. And I think actually that I would always advise anyone that does a CV or a portfolio in Photoshop is crazy.

I think that you need to do it in this. Because the wedding end desire, because if you do spend a Photoshop flatten it and the fast lights will