Gethin Nadin - Who cares about workplace wellbeing?

Gethin Nadin00:00

You almost need to hold wellbeing in one hand and have that in one hand whilst you make any other decisions in the organization. So you're really empathizing with are we doing this in a way that's conducive to somebody's good wellbeing. And I think for most of the leading organizations at the moment, they're in this mindset of we're moving away from do no harm to, we've got to do better.

Chris Taylor00:22

Welcome to that wellbeing at work show I'm Chris Taylor, your show host, author, speaker, and psychologist Gethin Nadin is one of the world's top employee experience and wellbeing influencers. Gethin's work has been featured in the FT, Forbes, Guardian and the Huffington Post among others..

Gethin is also chair of the UK government backed Engage for Success, wellbeing thought action group, and a fellow at the RSA. I begin by asking Gethin, if there was a clear definition of employee wellbeing? Gethin welcome to the show. So employee wellbeing, we hear the term all of the time, and I wondered if you had it sort of a clear definition of what we're talking about. I mean, some people say there are four pillars, others five, and actually on Google this morning, I found someone who saying there even six pillars of wellbeing, what is it all about?

Gethin Nadin01:09

Yeah, good question. I think lots of organizations are still struggling to define what wellbeing means to them. I work with customers who have five pillars of wellbeing. I've got one customer has got 26 pillars basically they just drill down into more detail. But for me, it's broad, there's broadly kind of five areas. Some of those will be familiar to your listeners, physical wellbeing, financial wellbeing. I like to use emotional wellbeing rather than mental health. I like us to focus on the idea that we all have this kind of sliding scale of mental health. And some days we feel a bit rubbish and some days we feel great. And actually, you know, it's not just about the absence of a mental health condition that can kind of affect our mood. Emotional wellbeing is one of the ones for me. Another one I like to use is, community wellbeing. So for me at work, that includes the relationships we have with the people that we work with, the sense of community and belonging.

We kind of feel it at work, but also outside of work. So. How we practice in altruism, how we kind of volunteering and donating to charity and creating a better society. And that then starts to seep into some of the environmental, social, and government issues as well. So how are we creating better societies? Because there's very close links between wellbeing and sustainability. And then lastly, leisure wellbeing. I think, you know, I came up with that term before the pandemic. but I think as soon as the pandemic hit, we all started to realize how important it actually was to spend time on the things we love doing with the people that we love and having those opportunities to kind of decompress and de-stress from work, spending time with people is really, really important. So whether that's spiritual, cultural pursuits, just going to the cinema or go into a bar, whatever it is that people do to kind of make life fulfilling. I think that's a really important part of wellbeing.

I think if you think about it in those kinds of broad five pillars, you start to really move away from the idea that wellbeing can be solved by just buying stuff, which is what I think a lot of the market's focused on at the moment.

Chris Taylor03:06

Okay. So now we have a clear definition, why should an organization then be bothered about it?

Gethin Nadin03:12

I think we now have enough vast and compelling evidence that those organizations that commit to employee wellbeing performed better. We know when we look at, in the UK, if we look at the FTSE 100, there's a direct statistical significant difference between those organizations in the footsie 100 who commit more to wellbeing and how they perform in terms of profits and shareholder return.

But it kind of makes sense, right? If you think about, you know, we are a long, long way away from the idea that people go to work to get a pay and that's it, their transaction finishes, we actually start to now, and I think most organizations are getting this, especially since the pandemic that employees are kind of in the best possible way assets to be invested in. When we support them, when we take care of them, when we enable them to thrive, they produce better things for us, they design better products. They deliver better customer service, they sell more products. And so it's really about, an investment in people in the same way that you think about whether you're maintaining a car or whatever, it might be the better you look after it, the better it performs. And I think that's, the view most people now have about wellbeing. I think, like I say, bouyed by the pandemic where we're at this point now, where I think if you don't understand the impact that employee wellbeing has on your organization, then I don't know what to tell you. I think if you can get that already, then you might as well switch off this podcast now. Cause we're not going to convince you anymore.

Chris Taylor04:36

Okay. So is some of the, is some of this also driven by let's say generation Z generation Z millennials. Actually they have a very different perspective of the world of work and they have a very different sort of perspective on what they'd like to get out of it. Do you think that also has sort of driven some of this agenda?

Gethin Nadin04:56

Yeah, undoubtedly. I think if you look at, and I don't, I tend to not like looking at generations because I think some of the, the generational research that is kind of ingrained in our minds is based on some pretty ropey research originally. So kind of what millennials are and what they want is, is all based on some pretty questionable research from the U S many years ago. But broadly, when you think about most people at work now, they don't want to just earn a salary. It's the reason why most of us will go to work clearly. And lots of people, I completely admit, do not have the luxury. They have to work in places that they don't want to work because that's the only job they can get, or they just need to kind of keep the wolf from the door. But for lots more people where we're considering is work this positive force in my life is work, enabling me to do the things I want to do in life.

And when you start to think about work in that context, you start to think about it. Is work, allow me to kind of pay back to communities, work, allowing me to make a difference to the world or society? And that doesn't come at odds anymore with, with pay. You know, that used to be, you wanted to be a vocation. So kind of you want to work for a third sector or a charity or a teacher, you know, all those kinds of roles where everyone just believed you went into doing those because you believed in the cause and you weren't focused on money. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. You can earn a higher wage now and still have a really positive impact on the world.

And I think that's the balance that lots of people are striving to try and get. Is can I earn enough money to live the life I want to live, but can I also do some good by taking that job?

Chris Taylor06:27

Okay, but changing tack slightly so just sort of looking at the, sort of the, the whole overall wellbeing market, uh, there was an article that you wrote, I think last year for REBA, you revealed that the wellbeing technology space for example, is, is valued at more than $9 billion. And I think the overall market in wellbeing is some sort of $50 billion. But looking at this technology, I wondered how much of it has sort of proven medical or professional research and evidence to back it up. Simply as anyone's sort of tested the efficacy of any of this tech?.

Gethin Nadin06:58

Yeah. I mean, I've, I've got a real bit in my teeth about this at the moment. This is a great question. So when I was doing the research for that article and a few scince, you know, there are almost a million digital health apps that are released, through the various different apps store.

Chris Taylor07:13

I think I've got most of them downloaded.

Gethin Nadin07:16

But, yeah, so that's kind of, you know, even IQVIA, even if take the most conservative kind of views, people like IQVIA a found that, you know, there's about 400,000. So, you know, there's an awful lot of them. And I think exactly, as you pointed out, people have just taken their old products, dusted them off, put the word wellbeing in front of it. And, and now it's kind of reselling that into a market. Yeah, where that's on trend and people are particularly interested in.

But even throughout the pandemic, you know, we saw a large increase in people downloading and searching for those apps, those types of apps during the pandemic. And interestingly, even doctors themselves reported a six and a half thousand percent increase in search in for apps that they could recommend to their patients to deal with the increase they had in patient numbers and wait times. So how could I palm people off the tech? Yeah, I don't have these huge wait times and lots of doctors hide during the pandemic. But I think worryingly despite this kind of huge rise in adoption of things like mental health apps globally. It's pretty obvious to me that the vast majority of them, including some of those endorsed by people like the NHS in the UK are actually clinically unproven and potentially ineffective.

And there was a really interesting study published in 2017 in professional Psychology and they warned that, and this is a direct quote; 'given the current state of the research clinicians may wish to consider cautiously incorporating apps as an adjunct to the treatment or recommending apps to clients.'

And I think what was unknown at the time was not only about the ineffectiveness of many of these apps, but in some circumstances, they believe that apps might actually make mental health conditions worse. And those concerns of have prevailed quite a lot over the couple of years, with a couple of studies suggesting that the use of many mental health apps can actually lead to an over-reliance and anxiety around kind of self diagnosis. But over the last couple of years, there's been many different, large studies that were looking at the efficacy of these apps. And one group of researchers studied almost 2000 mental health apps around the world. And while they found that about 64% of them claimed they had evidence of their effectiveness. Only 14% were able to prove any evidence. And another big Australian study conducted a major review of all the app stores and such like around the world and they were specifically looking at apps that offering treatment to aid, depression, anxiety. And those research has found that just 3.4% of apps had research to actually justify lots of their claims of effectiveness.

And again, the list goes on, but there was another big study last year that looked at, looked at the fact that most mental health apps suffer from a lack of underlying evidence-base a lack of scientific credibility and limited clinical effectiveness. And so as of, kind of the end of 2021 in the U S of the 20 odd thousand mental health apps available for download just five of those had been formally vetted and approved by the FDA.

And so, yeah, I grew increasingly concerned I think about the ineffectiveness or, not necessarily the ineffectiveness, but the lack of proof of the effectiveness of many of the wellbeing interventions that the really big brands are putting in front of their employees every day.

Chris Taylor10:21

Does it need to be regulated? Does it need a regulator here?

Gethin Nadin10:25

I think it does. And I think it's, it's definitely seems to be, heading that way. There's a, an organization called ORCHA, which is the organization for the review of care and health apps. And they kind of told a medical magazine last year that their biggest worry was that despite the kind of progress we've had in digital mental health support, as an example, they found that the majority of apps would fail their own assessment process. That only a third of apps would score above their baseline of Acceptibility, which was at 65%. So there are organizations who are picking up some of that slack, but I think, you know, if there's almost a million wellbeing apps , and they're scientists and researchers and psychologists saying, and we're not entirely sure whether this is going to make the situation worse or not. Then I think there's going to come a point where somebody has to step in and say, you can't just say, buy this thing and I'll solve mental health in your organization. And in many cases, that's just not true..

Okay. And

Chris Taylor11:20

looking at sort of communications surrounding health messaging. I mean, they're always sort of a notoriously ineffective. I was just thinking about, you know, we're all told to, you know, reduce our alcohol consumption or eat, you know, five portions of fruit and veggies a day, which very few people seem to do and you mentioned it in that article that you, that you wrote for RIBA about the, the term psychological reactance, as a reason why we don't do something that we're told is fundamentally good for us. Can you explain a bit more about that?.

Gethin Nadin11:46

Yeah. So I think this is, it's a, it's a really good example. I think everyone's probably experienced because even when I was in school, we got told, eat five bits of fruit and vegetables a day water sleep for eight hours, exercise, or, kind of have physical activity for 15 minutes a day. Those, those heuristics have been driven into us, you know, in our entire lives. But most of us don't do that stuff. and the reality is most people don't like being told what to do. Most people don't like having to face up to, the fact that they might not be healthy and they need to do work. There's an ugly truth that lots of us don't like, admitting to and it's easy for us to just park that stuff and just not listen to it and not listen to those thoughts that are in our heads. And this is the reason why most people, when you think about health behavior change, don't actually start changing their behavior until there's some big, compelling reason why they should do that.

Chris Taylor12:38

What a crisis?

Gethin Nadin12:40

Well, it could be a crisis. It could be, I'm getting married next year. So I need to lose weight because as simple as that, but you know, I think about family members, I know who'd been warned about a diabetes diagnosis and at the start of the pandemic got a diabetes diagnosis. And it was like, well, it's not a surprise. You know, you were told by the GP quite a lot that this might be a diagnosis that was coming and actually made changes. And that family member suddenly started to make all the changes and start exercising more, going on, more walks, starting, eating better. But it's frustrating. That, I look at that as a psychologist and I think, you know, you acted once you absolutely had to, you ignored the warning signs that were coming down, down the line. And unfortunately that's, if you look at any model of health behavior change, since the seventies, the kind of the starting point is to come. So like, why should I be concerned? How does it affect me? What happens if I do nothing? What happens if I do something? And I think what we've probably not been very good at is showing people the kind of brighter side of, of action. So if you look at, so we see this with a behavior change in, in pensions as a really good example, there was some really good research done by the behavioral insights team, as part of the UK Cabinet Office in December last year. And they were looking at why people don't pay into their pension and are all these messages we used to use in the workplace, which was basically, you know, if you don't pay into your pension, you're going to retire and you're going to eating a tin of cat food every day. Cause you're not going to have enough money. And then we started changing that kind of language that we, it changed the kind of don't have your Starbucks coffee every day. And instead put that $2 50 or whatever it is into your 401k or your retirement fund. And that would start to, you know, give a little bit up today and pay that into the future.

And actually, if you look at some of the research, that's come out with behavioral insights team. What they looked at last year was actually, can I show people what their life might look like when they hit 70, 80? And if I then show them. If you're 80 years old and you put this amount of money into your pension today, by the time you're 80, you're going to be able to go out for a meal twice a week and have two holidays abroad twice a year.

And as soon as you start to show people the lifestyle that they could be living, that's when you start to have an impact on people's behavior. And there's some really, really fun and exciting examples of how studies have shown that in the past, where, you know, if a, if a man or a woman puts a photograph of their children in their wallet so that they can see, they start to spend less frivolously, they start to consider, oh, actually I've got kids and maybe there's a way I can spend this money better.

And it's kind of no different to anyone who's lost weight, putting a picture of their old selves on the fridge to try and to move themselves away from, putting more weight or eating unhealthily. And so I think there's a lot here, which I think we should focus on. Kind of, how can we be more aspirational? How can we show employees what life could look like and how much better life could be, rather than trying to scare them into an action, positive messaging, as opposed to negative messaging? I think so. And we've got some really recent examples through the pandemic, you know, the UK government put these posters up during the pandemic of people on ventilators with masks on their face, you know, lying in hospital, dying, basically saying, if you don't wear your mask, this person's going to die. And that didn't work. Behavioral psychologists and behavioral scientists all around the world, decried that they're like this fear, this fear stuff does doesn't work.

And if you think about a lot of how we've looked at health behavior change. It's been driven around fear. So cigarette packets, having rotten teeth or rotten lungs on the covers, you know, cigar packets saying, if you, if you smoke cigars, you'll be impotent. That fear messaging hasn't worked. The only thing that worked when it came to smoking, as an example, would you kind of made it a bit uncool to smoke and you made people go outside and stand in the cold and all of a sudden that's the only real, anti-smoking campaign that ever really worked. And so, yeah, I think we've got to change the messaging and there's a lot that employees can learn about the way that governments and the state and health services have operated over the years about how can we get employee wellbeing to work in our organization. I think it has to be aspirational.

Chris Taylor16:54

And if you're looking at wellbeing in general, in terms of the organization, then I was just thinking, you know, if stress and anxiety and burnout, these are words that are, you know, that are used all the time. And it seems to be endemic in most workplaces and shouldn't lead us therefore and in particular, HR Directors or leaders being directly addressing the causes of some of this stress at work. And I was interviewed recently for another podcast, Julia Hobsbawm and she's said in her new book The Nowhee Office that actually what we need is less warm words and more action.

And if we don't tackle things like poor job design and toxic work cultures and presentesism and unrealistic deadlines, and all of that is all of the wellbeing in the world at work rather useless if we don't actually look at the fundamentals of the work and the workplace?

Gethin Nadin17:41

I wouldn't say it was useless, but I think , the boom of these kinds of wellbeing, apps and wellbeing solutions that employees can go and buy has muddied the water around that kind of definition of wellbeing. And if you think about those five pillars I spoke about at the start within that stuff, it's like, you know, if I've got a friend at work, I'm more likely to be engaged, I'm more likely to stay loyal to that business. I'm less likely to kind of feel lonely outside of work. And so, again, that style of our wellbeing is kind of the connections we have in the workplace. And you mentioned burnout. Burnout is kind of been a theme of the pandemic. And if you look at the reasons why burnout happens in organization and Birkbeck University have done a lot of research on this. It's almost entirely organizational structure reasons why people burn out it's, I'm not getting recognized for the job. I don't get the autonomy that I need. My workload is too much. I'm not getting clear direction. It's all that kind of stuff that the evidence says causes burnout. Yet when you think about how lots of big employers have responded to burnout, they've effectively said to somebody, oh, you're burnt out and we caused it, but here's a way for you to go and self-medicate to get over your burnout.

And we saw that with big employers, like Bumble and LinkedIn and Nike who during the pandemic surveyed their employees. And those employees said I'm burnt out. And they responded by saying, okay, we're going to give everyone a week off paid so you can get over your burnout and then come back to work. And it just, it's not solving the problem. They're going back to the same workplace in the same way that caused the problems in the first place. And so I think when you think about wellbeing at work, you have to think about all those interactions that you have with employees and how it might drive it. And a really simple one that I'm sure every listener has experienced at some point is if your manager sends you a message on Friday evening saying, I need to have a chat with you on Monday, and that's all the message says, that's going to drive a lot of anxiety. That's going to affect the wellbeing of that person all weekend. And so they're the kind of behaviors that you need everyone in the business to understand that, you know, if we're prioritizing well-being, we've got to think about those things. A really good example we had in the UK recently was one of our major banks, does a huge amount when it comes to wellbeing, they signed all these mental health charters. They're very kind of prolific when it comes to talking about mental health in the workplace, they've won lots of awards. They buy lots of wellbeing tools. They do all the right things and they communicate it in the right way. But when one of their employees had a cancer diagnosis, they fired that employee because they wouldn't be there but they'd be getting cancer treatment, and wouldn't be there at work and being productive. And that employee took them to court, despite being a very good at high paid employee for kind of six years, took them to court and said, look, this was unfair dismissal. And a recording that was played out in court was that person's manager, phoning HR saying this person's going through cancer treatment. They're not going to be at work now. So how can I get rid of them? And so for me in that example, and that person's actually won that court case and will probably receive in the region of 2 million pounds from that bank. But in that example, all the things that the HR team were doing failed into insignificance for that one person, because that person's experience was well, no, you don't take care of your people and you didn't take care of me. And so I think we've really got to get the whole organization to understand that it's not just HR's job to solve. We all have responsibility over wellbeing. And for many people in a big organization, their experience of that employer is going to be their own manager. So their own managers not bought into this. If they're a manager, doesn't see employee wellbeing as part of their success as an individual and a manager, and we're never going to get employee wellbeing right. Sure. The interesting thing is, exactly as you've kind of said, companies don't always act in a way that prioritizes the wellbeing of their people, even when they think they do. And I think that's because we don't, if we think about wellbeing in the reactionary way that I think many of us have thought about it for a long time, you wait until there's a problem. And then you try and fix that problem. You don't see this aggregation of marginal gains that actually the little things or an employee can do can wear somebody down over a period of time.

And it's where you start to see the crossover between wellbeing and diversity inclusion. For example. Somebody who doesn't feel welcome in your organization is more likely to develop a mental health condition. If you are a black employee, if you are a woman, if you are a gay employee, you're more likely to develop poor mental health because of the way society is structured against you. And so the workplace needs to change, not just because diversity inclusion is something we should all be doing and actually commits quite strongly to organizational success. It is part of wellbeing as well. Feeling included, feeling represented at work, enhances the wellbeing of the individual. So it's really complex, but I think, you know, you almost need to hold well-being in one hand and have that in one hand whilst you make any other decision in the organization. So you're really empathising with are we doing this in a way that's conducive to somebody's good wellbeing? And I think from most of the leading organizations at the moment, they're in this mindset of we're moving away from do no harm to, we've got to do better. We've got to make sure that work is a positive force in people's lives. So it's not just us making sure we don't cause burnout, but actually, as you've mentioned, how do we help them with the cost of living increase, which we as employees haven't started, it's not, we didn't start this problem necessarily our problem to solve. If I want to be a good responsible employee that people want to come and work for. Do I feel like I have responsibility over those people and most organizations now agree they do. They just need to start thinking about wellbeing is every touch point they have with an employee.

Chris Taylor23:16

So this really has to be very bespoke doesn't it? As bespoke as you can possibly make it.

Gethin Nadin23:21

Yeah. And I think, you know, we are, we are such diverse people with ever changing needs. Wellbeing has to be personalized to the individual. I think we have to treat everyone as an individual and that's why we need managers to be bought into wellbeing. Because if you employ 50,000 people, that's very difficult to do. Unless you've got managers to have some kind of control of responsibility over wellbeing.

Chris Taylor23:42

Okay. And you mentioned at the beginning how important a sense of community and belonging is in an organization in terms of the wellbeing. can you expand a little on that?

Gethin Nadin23:50

Oh, yeah. So if we look at burnout, so all those reasons that cause burnout, you know, as I mentioned, lots of those will be structural, but the most effective way of dealing with burnout is for people to have more people in their life that they can trust and lean on and speak to. So it makes us incredibly resilient to the stuff that life throws at us when we have more people around that we can speak to. And that doesn't necessarily mean just friends and family, but the people that we work with, you know, people I can go to and I can just speak to and I can run ideas past and I can kind of go out for a coffee with is really, really important part of, our overall wellbeing is that connection to other people. And I think we all experienced how important people were during the pandemic when we were disconnected from them, when we couldn't spend time with them. And there are so many examples and so many bits of research that show, you know, people who are struggling with their mental health going out and spending time with other people, makes a huge difference.

And so in the workplace, it's a really, really big part of wellbeing, but it's also a really big part of performance because we live in a world now where collaboration is really important. Innovation is really important and we need people working together to get that. From an inside work sense, that sense of community, getting people together is really, really important. And I completely accept that in a hybrid working world, that's going to become more difficult to achieve, but I think that's where you start to think of the workplace as offering the stuff you can't get at home.

Chris Taylor25:13

Well, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think the office has to become something else doesn't it? It almost has to become as someone else said, you know, private members club that people literally have, or an airport lounge that people are dropping in and that they're meeting and they're having a cup of tea and a cup of coffee and catch up with colleagues and having a few meetings and, you know, might not see them again for a couple weeks.

Gethin Nadin25:30



exactly. And I think, you know, we all know this. We know that as soon when we understand somebody on a personal level, we start to engage more with that person. And one of the examples I really like using is if you ever watch television programs in the US or the UK, or kind of throughout Europe, like First Dates or The Apprentice, you tend to see these contestants walk onto these programs. And you know, they come across as a bit arrogant and they say things that are a bit kind of cringe-worthy and you kind of think, oh, who's this idiot. God, he's going to go on a date with him? And then they start talking about their life and they talk about the challenges they've had and they might've gone through bereavement or whatever it might be. And all of a sudden you start warming to that person. You kind of think, oh, he's a nice guy actually. And I think if we do more of that in the workplace, then I think we start to bridge some of those gaps where suddenly they're not just somebody who works in a team, you start to see them as a parent or a husband or wife or a partner. And I think when we understand people like that, the workplace becomes a much better on many different fronts. So how do we get back to that point? Where you know, when I first started working, I had structured breaks. You work four hours, you get a 30 minute break, your work, another two hours, you get a 15 minute break. We structured the day around me sitting in a canteen, having time with people that doesn't happen anymore. So I think we almost need to bring some of that stuff back. And exactly, as you said, when you look at some of the plans, big consultancy firms and banks have got around what their head office is going to become. Some of them are even looking at, do we put beds and rooms in? So rather than using hotels, you actually sleep at the office and you sleep at the office, or you turn some of your floors into a mini hotel so that you make it easy for people. So they can connect with those people all day long. And you can have breakfast with your team. And I'm quite excited by that. You know, I've for 10 years lived three hours almost away from the office. So people have had to try quite hard to get me to go to a meeting because it needs to be justified six hours on the road. So, well, interestingly, since we've started kind of lockdowns are finished and the start of 2022, I've been back to the office quite a few times, and it's almost entirely been based around of having a few exactly as you said it kind of few casual catch ups going out for coffee, meeting people for lunch and just kind of reaffirming the connections I had with people and just making sure that those bonds are still there because that's a really important part of, my success at work is to be close to those people.

Chris Taylor27:54

Yeah. Okay. Now, lastly, look, I'm a newly appointed HR director or Chief People Officer, and I'm building an employee wellbeing strategy from scratch and I sort of want to know what foundations do you think I ought to have in place, even before I start looking at any technology or wellbeing vendors to help support my objective. What would you say the very first thing that you would do?

Gethin Nadin28:17

Right. It's a great question. So in the last year or so, I've run probably a hundred different wellbeing workshops with large employers all over the world. And the first question I asked them is if I stopped one of your employees on the street, and I asked them if their employer cared about them, what would they say? And I think that question can start to get people thinking a little bit about what do we need to do. Cause sometimes I think the answer to that question is more important than stuff you do. If somebody believes you will be there for them, if they really needed it, the stuff you buy and the things you put in place become less important.

Sure. But I think you start to get to the point, which is why are we doing wellbeing? Why is wellbeing important to this organization? Because you know, when I first got into this industry, wellbeing was about how do I get you back at work and productive as soon as possible? If you break your leg, how do I get you back? I'll give you private medical, cause I want you to get treatment straight away because I want you back at work. And as I mentioned at the start, that's now changed to well, no, I care about you and I want to do right by you. And I know that unless you're in the right frame of mind and in a good, happy, healthy place, I'm not going to get the best out of you. So how do I fix those things to make sure that you kind of are as productive and as engaged as I need you to be. And so I think thinking about why you're doing wellbeing, if you're doing wellbeing, just because your sickness rates are really high or you're doing wellbeing because your health insurance in the US is going through the roof. And so actually you don't want people claiming, that will start to fail pretty quickly. The largest workplace wellbeing studies we've seen across the US since this pandemic started have shown that when you design for the organization, wellbeing failed. When you designed for the individual, it starts to succeed. And so I would say the first thing to do is kind of consider why is wellbeing important to this organization. Why are we doing it? And what do we hope to get out of it? And then how do we make sure we design that around what the employee wants and needs? Because everything else will start to fall into place following that

Chris Taylor30:11

Gethin Nadin. That's brilliant. Thank you very much, indeed.

Gethin Nadin30:14

Thanks for having me.

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