More Money More Problems with Ryan Zurrer

Ryan Zurrer00:06

if you're not outperforming ETH, you gotta really have a strong look in the mirror. like what am I doing here?

Summary of the episode
Jonas00:18

Hello and welcome to defier. The podcast gives you the wisdom and entertainment to survive.

Even the harshest bear markets. My name is Jonas and today on the show, I'm going to visit a venture capitalist with a pleasing baritone voice. I mean, listen to this.

Ryan Zurrer00:33

I'm Ryan and, I'm confident enough to wear moon boots.

Jonas00:39

Ryan Zurrer is a VC and entrepreneur who somehow managed to reliably be early to almost everything. From crypto to renewables and nfts and now even psychedelics.

Ryan Zurrer00:52

often when I'm talking with people about our bio-science or psychedelics and longevity fund. today I mentioned that psychedelics is actually my fourth bubble.

Jonas01:02

In this conversation, we talk about his journey. from trading.com stocks as a teenager to how he became CEO of a big. Energy company in Brazil when he was only 29 years old.

Ryan also shares the stories of the early days of poly chain capital and how two guys with a laptop started one of the most. Successful VC funds out of an apartment in San Francisco. But. That's not all. We also talk. About nfts and art Because of ryan recently gained notoriety in the artwork as well When you bought human one Uh, digital artwork slash sculpture by the artist beeple. Ryan relives the moment of the auction and explains the strategies and tells us what makes this sculpture of an astronauts We're Not strolling through a dystopian landscape So unique But before we dive in a. a Short word from the sponsor of this episode me

Sponsor: CryptoValley.jobs

CryptoValley.jobs is a job board where engineers Designers, Analysts, Traders, and Community Builders can find cool crypto jobs, full disclosure. I run this job board as a side project of this podcast.

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cool?

Tapioca as a present

No, that's good. Yeah. All right. And, before we start, I also brought you little present I'm not sure if you know what that is

Ryan Zurrer02:45

Oh yeah, do I ever in fact I'm going down there on Saturday.

Jonas02:50

It's some white powder from.

Ryan Zurrer02:52

From south America.

I imagine when you, as you went through security. They're like, what is this? like, we just make omelets with it. That's great. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jonas03:04

yeah, let's just start then. Ryan Zurrer, thank you so much for coming on. I

Ryan Zurrer03:08

thank you for having me.

Moon Boots Anecdote
Jonas03:09

Yeah. I bumped into, Ozan and, Dean the other day or the night actually at Langstrasse and asked him what will be a good icebreaker. And they told me, I should ask you, what are your favorite shoes and where do they come from?

Ryan Zurrer03:27

Oh, that's a good one. definitely the present , that, Ozan and Dean got me here are, very special shoes at this point.

we've had this joke going around cause we spend a lot of time in, St. Moritz as a team. Right. And like the way that we structure our team at dialectic and like how we spend time together is sort of this ebb and flow of remote versus being together. and very frequently when we were together, we would be up at St. Marets, which is like moon boot capital of the world. As I was walking around and seeing these moon boots, which are mostly worn by Russian oligarch wives up in San Marets, I kind of, I made the question one day, if it's.

in any way, appropriate or acceptable for a white, straight male to wear moon boots. And they just laughed hysterically at me for a while, but then the joke kept going and they, they got me a pair of, I suppose, the most masculine moon boots there are. And I absolutely love them. They're great.

Dean Eigenmann and Ozan Polat Co-founders
Jonas04:22

Yeah. And Dean and Ozan obviously are employees or coworkers of yours, right?

Ryan Zurrer04:27

Yeah. Yeah. Dean, was co-founder of dialectic when I started dialectic, You know, Dean, is a very unique, character, in crypto. Even though he's very young and he's at a really long track record of, doing great work. So he did some of the most complex, smart contracts, security audits in the game, and also calling out bullshit.

Years before, or those people ended up being called out as a charlatans or whatever else. he was the first one to highlight that and do it publicly and unabashedly. so he's an independent thinker, which is what I wanted, in a co-founder. and I wanted, somebody with the technical skillset and then incidentally, you know, because we were starting in, in Switzerland, I either could have paid a lawyer to be the director at the time as a Swiss resident. Or just find somebody, I like to be around as my co-board member and director. And so, Dean became an obvious choice that where our friendship, evolved , into a partnership. And then, Ozon came in as part of the founding team. we have a group of five that we, consider the founding group that spent all those weeks up in, St. Moritz designing what dialectic has become today.

Ryan Zurrer Bio
Jonas05:38

All right. Wow. I didn't know that. so Ryan, um, We also need to have this sound bit where you introduced yourself, but I make it a little bit more fun for you. Um, you walk into a room with a lot of impressive people that you probably know, but they don't know you.

And you want them to know that you are kind of a big deal. How do you walk up to them? How do you introduce yourself?

Ryan Zurrer06:01

I think I would say, I'm Ryan and, I'm confident enough to wear moon boots. Ah, yeah. So, you know, did he sort of like give a bit of background and qualifier? I spent a decade in renewables, in the two thousands and kind of the clean tech boom and incidentally, often when I'm talking with people about our bio-science or psychedelics and longevity fund. today I mentioned that psychedelics is actually my fourth bubble. I was very active, the trading.com stocks in the nineties, as a teenager, and had some great runs, but also great crashes I was, very much part of the clean tech boom of the late two thousands. and then obviously I've sat at the eye of the storm of, the growth in crypto, through the 2000 tens, uh, was mining and in 2013, obviously, center stage for the ICO, boom in 2017, leading poly chains, private investments and doing a lot of the early SAFTs, an instrument that I created.

and then now again, fortunate enough to, to, to sort of, be at the eye of the storm in the play to earn gaming and NFT boom here in, in crypto. and then a parallel became really passionate about psychedelics as a solution for mental health. which in my view is the biggest problem that mankind faces today.

You know, having a decade in renewables, I left renewables because I understood very, very directly. and I would argue unequivocally that climate change is technologically solved. We have all the technology we need to fix climate change. It's just a matter of implementing the infrastructure and, and its infrastructure, right.

It takes decades to implement. It's not something that happens overnight. and so today the, the largest problem that mankind faces. is certainly in the mental health, pandemic that we've unleashed onto our society. So four bubbles over the course of a little more than 20 years, and, very grateful for the ride that has been each time.

Jonas08:01

And

SAFTs - Simple Agreement for Future Tokens

just to remember, to remind people what our SAFTs again, what does that stand for

Ryan Zurrer08:05

? So SAFT is a simple agreement for future tokens. it is a play on the Y Combinator safe. so I took the publicly available, Y Combinator safe, and I, modified it for tokens.

and originally I actually called it a safety, because I wanted it to be able to convert with tokens or equity. but my friend Juan Bennay who, who really was, was one of the leading minds of creating, like the defining SAFT that we now use. and there SAFT was not the first, but it was the first professionalized SAFT, the file coin SAFT.

he had recommended to me to not use the word safety, because it conveys a message of security, which these things are by no means safe or secure in any way. incidentally, it kind of has now migrated like independent of me. The, the industry has sort of migrated it to a safety, but like SAFT dash E uh, rather than, than just like a safety.

and, and I think that's because a lot of lawyers came to the same conclusion that one dead that, yes, we need an equity kicker often, but no, we don't need to be communicating to the world any level of security with this. Cause these are probably the most unsafe financial assets that anybody can invest into.

How Ryan became CEO of a big energy company at 29
Jonas09:18

Yeah. I would like to quickly, jump in the beginning when you were starting to go into crypto. So I understood that you, you, you, I think I've seen like the first of your presentations in, in, in, in Rio, in Brazil with, Alexandre Van De Sande, who was on the pod as well.

What was that the first time when you got into Crypto and why like you were in renewables at the time, but 2015 or earlier in, you already started to go into crypto. What was the thing that you saw that you were like, okay, this is the next big thing?

Ryan Zurrer09:53

So I was CEO of a pretty large, energy producer in Brazil it was a subsidiary of the JBS group.

and, I really liked being in Brazil in part, because it's just a wonderful country. that is a world unto itself. And like, it just look filled with so much beauty and magic. and I was given the opportunity to be CEO of company that would have taken me 35 years to be a CEO of in North America.

Jonas10:22

How old were you at the time?

When?

Ryan Zurrer10:23

Uh, I was 29 when I took the CEO job. Wow. That's for, yeah, for, for

Jonas10:28

It, must've been scary now to be suddenly a CEO of a big company.

Ryan Zurrer10:32

No, because it, incidentally what happened was I was, I was working with Vestas and I got an opportunity to build some of the early, wind projects in Brazil.

And in fact it was a deal between me and Vestas because I had just done one of the first large scale projects in China, which was up in inner Mongolia and it was bitterly cold. It was through the winter, it was a demonstration project for the Olympics. So we had to get it done. So we had to be there and it's like minus 40, like Tundra.

and I told Vesta, so I was like, no more cold weather projects. I want somewhere warm next. And so they didn't think that I would, I would accept it, but they're like, okay, well we have these like two small projects that we have to do on the beach in Brazil, but we don't think that this market is going to go anywhere.

And there's like 2007. Right. and so like, you could do that, but you'd be kind of like thrown away your, your career. Cause like you'll be stranded down there and, and south America. And, and I took, I took the opportunity and as the world crumbled and in 2008 debt dried up and debt really is the lifeblood of infrastructure projects, especially renewables.

Brazil was at the end of the Lula era and really starting to take off. and so I started there with almost a quarter of the entire installed capacity under my wings as a 25 year old. And, and so it was just. Right place right time. And I kind of built out an expertise of Brazilian renewables, younger than other people had.

You

Why Ryan had to lie about his age during his tenure as CEO

know, you can age in two ways, you can age from time or you can age from war. And I felt like, you know, I had just been through the battles and in renewables, such that I was D you know, I was the correct person for that kind of job. at that time instantly, I had to cue my twenties, mostly lie about my age, to colleagues.

I hadn't really, like, they're not completely, transparent, and you couldn't be in renewables because so many people are like fifties and above that, they just like, they wouldn't listen to a 27 year old. If you told them that you're 27, especially in a place like Brazil where there's, you know, hierarchy and, and chauvinism and so on and so forth.

Right. Like taking that for some reason, there's a massive mental leap, for, like a Brazilian energy executive to take instructions from a 28 year old or a 31 year old. And so I just, you know, for their own peace of mind would, would let them think what they want

Jonas12:58

A good beard helps.

Ryan Zurrer13:00

Yeah.

First interest in Bitcoin due to cross-border payments

So, so, being down there, and running this business and really enjoying life, down there and not wanting to leave, I did have to send money home all the time to like, you know, I had a cottage that needed, look, regular payments and things like that.

And I was just getting absolutely skin on remittance fees. Like you can't people think they're only pain a few percent or less than 1% on a remittance fee. But the thing that you don't understand is you pay tourism dollar, you don't pay commercial dollar. And so your actual all-in costs like I was calculating it.

I did tests like actual tests in this where. I took a thousand, 10,000, a hundred thousand, Hey eyes at the time. And I did three remittances with them home. And even on the a hundred thousand, I couldn't get it below 10% all in cost of cash in my pocket in Brazil to cash in my pocket in Canada. And so I was like, this is it just infuriated me to the point where I wanted a different solution.

And so the moment that I discovered Bitcoin, I immediately went to that use case. And I also immediate, and I was also the moment that I discovered smart contracts meant Ethereum. I immediately went to the use cases that I could exploit in renewables because we were spending, we were spending like a hundred million dollars a year on escrow contracts and we had our contracts were 10,000 plus pages.

and you could really simplify all of that both financially and from like a contractual language perspective, if you created it as if then statements in a smart contract

Why Ethereum and Smart Contracts instantly made sense to Ryan
Jonas14:38

And the escrow just is, you sent the money and you only release it under certain circumstances. And why was the a hundred million locked in there? Or why did you spend so much on that?

Ryan Zurrer14:48

So that was just like service fees. Like we were, we're putting billions through escrow contracts, but then they would take, you know, typically like 140 bips to 280 bips just as a service fee for escrow down there. and the reason for that is because when you go bilateral, it's kind of like crypto in this sort of made crypto a natural transition for me when you're, when you're doing business between two different countries and two businesses in two countries.

And it's above a certain threshold of monetary value, like say like a hundred million. Laws are off the table, right? Like all bets are off. Like, you'd be surprised. The world-class organizations that act like scumbags in these kinds of environments. like, If they can steal $20 million from me, like they will.

So, so these contracts look like you're dealing with it in Portuguese, who we would, we would say o contrato de pelantragem like where you're dealing with this, like, you know, scumbag who like here, I'll give you 1% and then you give me look 1% of the goods and then I'll give you another percent.

And then you give me another percent of the goods. and that's just like the nature of how that business operates. And we were having net operating costs of these financial instruments that I found. Like I quickly identified that smart contracts and crypto could negate away that, you know, really, really large.

How Ryan founded Coinverse to solve his own problem with Remittances
Ryan Zurrer16:16

And then for myself as an individual, I thought, okay hey, You know, Bitcoin could be, rails for me to do, uh, remittances and that's, that sort of led me to my first, crypto business, which was called coin verse where we were doing remittances for Brazilians, using Bitcoin. it wasn't that successful, although it still operates today.

And I'm very proud of that. but it wasn't that successful because the volatility of Bitcoin sometimes would eclipse where he would save on Romans. And because people often did not want to use their Bitcoin for like everyday payments, you know, it really has become a speculative asset. So we kind of

Jonas16:54

what year was that when you, when, when you founded it?

Ryan Zurrer16:56

That was 2013

Jonas16:58

2013. Wow. But you were a CEO of this huge company. How did you even have time to think about that?

Ryan Zurrer17:04

I hired, I hired in, a CEO to run that, and he did a good job and we ended up going on to sell it to crypto exchange in Brazil and the service still operates today, which is calling people. People use it to pay boletos right.

You're familiar. Yeah. So people who, who often live outside of Brazil, and are crypto rich, they'll pay for their costs in Brazil. With the service. And so it's like

Jonas17:33

I

From Crowdfunding to Crowdinvesting to ICOs

must check it out. Cause I sometimes have issues like, clearly like you were, you were very entrepreneurial at the time or still are, what was occupying your mind? Did you want to become financially successful or what was, what was driving you?

Ryan Zurrer17:48

At the time around 2011, I had started doing some venture capital, around crowdsourcing and crowdfunding. I thought crowdfunding was really, really powerful. and that was also like kind of a click aha moment.

For crypto and especially Ethereum just the crowdfunding use case, which eventually went on to be called ICO's, was a use case that was amazing because when you raise capital from a crowd, rather than a group of VCs, you gain a value, add that no VC on the planet can touch, right?

You gain free work, free beta testers, free evangelists and marketers and, and people, you know, this community of people driving your project forward, that gives it much more leverage than if you took capital from even the most thoughtful, you know, venture investor on the planet. and then often you were getting capital away, better terms, which we've, we've seen over and over again.

So I just thought of that as a model that could disrupt venture cap. Being in Brazil, I was kind of fell like I was on the outside looking in to, to Silicon valley in terms of deal flow. and I wanted something that could like flip the switch on that and make venture capital more, more of a global business than a local business.

Cause it was like very concentrated in the valley at that time. And we've just started to achieve that like distribution of, of wealth and power and, and venture. And I would argue that it's largely been driven from crypto

Jonas19:17

I

The darkside of the ICO boom

was also super interested in crowdfunding my master teases about, yeah,

I always thought that that's the cool thing that you can be me as a retail investor. So to say, can, can have the upside that usually just VC half now it feel, kind of the tide has shifted again to. Eh, you know, like I see what boom is over and he hasn't always been good.

He has sometimes attracted to least intelligent kind of investors. Right. Not always, obviously I mean Ethereum and a ton of good projects came out of it. Yeah. But that, that is a criticism that's somehow I think is valid as well.

Ryan Zurrer19:53

Th those types of things, I'm just sort of like, you know, I'm the type, but I'm perfectly happy to let chaos reign and like things will shake out over time and, it's okay. In my view to have, you know, a large percentage be look, failed experiments because that's like the nature of experimentation. But I do recognize that ICO's grew in the mind of some people may be too quickly, and without enough, due diligence and, it's funny. I used to argue that because I was at an early investor in the DAO actually, that's where Alex and I became really good friends.

Could The DAO have moderated the ICO boom?
Ryan Zurrer20:32

I used to argue, and I still think that if the DAO had survived, the ICO boom would have been much more tepid and much more reasoned because the DAO would have been doing good due diligence. It would have held the, the industry to account where a distributed group of investors can't really do that.

because if somebody doesn't invest than somebody else will. And so you can't really like hold entrepreneurs feet to the fire because, you know, there's no like important signal, but if the DAO was there setting like the standard and saying, Hey, you know, this project, we're not going to invest in because they didn't pass our due diligence that would have allowed a lot of projects that we've done.

came to learn where scams, it would have prevented them from, from getting capital. This was kind of, kind of interesting though.

Jonas21:18

It's

Why most Investor DAOs can't outperform ETH

interesting that the DAO never really was kind of like re-engineered and redone because I thought at the time it was such an interesting idea and a great use case. So why didn't know nobody ever tried again to do this, you know,

Ryan Zurrer21:33

So people have, and we've invested in a number of them. I put out some proposals in 2018 when I left the web three foundation, for, four DAO projects, I didn't want to do, like, I didn't want to lead one, but I wanted to invest in one. And I ended up investing in a bunch of them.

This was 2019. today, most of those investor DAO projects have not had the success of, their contemporaries in the space. So like angel investors or venture funds, like structured venture funds, somewhat like resonance for us. And the reason for that is I noticed that the, the doubt groups, because they were not filtered in the execution.

So like anybody, anybody could buy one share, show up, have an opinion that they were often getting front round. So people would get an idea out of a Dao conversation, but they're also running a venture fund and they would go and do the deal and leave like an angel check left for the Dow. and so you haven't had, they haven't been successful because they lack elegant design in their, in their governance and execution that you don't have enough filtering of the information.

And the reality is, is that early stage investing, investing relies on, privileged information. And when too many people are being shared, a certain set of, of information. naturally someone will shirk and front, right? So that's why, that's why we haven't seen a large successes of investor dowse. as of late, I do think that elegant design will evolve over time.

but, the current iteration of DAOs, with maybe the singular exception of Flamingo, you know, have not outperformed their venture peers and have largely not outperformed the eith that they took in as capitalization, right? This is the benchmark to be tough, right? Like really look, you gotta be really good at what you do.

This is really difficult to perform me. And so you, you, you have to be great. And if you have an information problem, and also a tragedy of the commons problem where nobody's being paid, you know, tough to outperform.

Polychain Capital
Jonas23:44

Yep. You also. you've been working at Polychain Capital. Right. Can you tell us the story about Polychain capital, what their role is? Polychain capital. How you got in there?

Ryan Zurrer23:56

Yep. so Olaf, had started poly chain and, August of 2016. and, I came in in September, as a first employee and it was the two of us, in an apartment in SF, you know, basically doing a lot of the early SAFT deals. and,

Jonas24:13

and sorry, how did you get to know him? Like, how did that happen?

Ryan Zurrer24:15

I've been an investor in we had both been an investor in a company, a really interesting company and a very smart founder, Richard crab of Numerai and, Richard introduced us and we started talking, I kind of flew out there and we. a few hours just, you know, jamming on concepts.

I think the first, our first conversation we had, well, it was scheduled to be like half an hour. I think it was like two and a half hours. By the time we both were like, okay, we gotta go. and so we just got along really well and then we had slightly, I would say, adjacent, synergistic views of the space.

Like I wanted to do pure play early stage venture capital. Like the deal that I had just done. a few months before Polychain started was Maker DAO, or actually no, probably a year before Polychain had started was Maker DAO where I was the first money in the door there. And they were, you know, a really young team.

Some of them had just come out of high school and. I liked the opportunity to deploy some capital, but then also help them with some stuff, you know, thinking through legal and things like that. and Olaf was doing some really great like trading and quant strats and, and, and things like that.

And we sort of combined both of these schools of thought of taking, like a thoughtful, quantitative approach to early stage investing, but then trying to connect very directly with founders and trying to figure out something that we could do for them, that they, you know, that they would find useful.

And,

How Polychain Capital caught lightning in a bottle

and then that would allow us to get sort of leveraged, privileged deal in, in, in like an investment round or whatever. It grew. like wildfire and 2017, like it's really rare, you know, it's once in a hundred million lives times that you catch lightning in a bottle and we could really feel it.

The one day that we knew that this was growing faster than them, than we could even handle, which is a moment that in startups, I call getting slippery. Like when a company gets slippery, it sort of like grows at a rate that you don't even look one to. Cause you can't even keep up with it.

Like you're not, you don't even feel ready for that. And so the moment that that happened was the Bancor ICO, which we didn't participate. We, we had done the due diligence and waved that off. And I think, you know, now a number of years later, it was probably a good wave. and they had raised like 120 million or something like that in a day.

Sleeping on an air mattress in the office
Ryan Zurrer26:42

And our AUM was probably 150, but it was just still the two of us. , in this apartment and I was actually sleeping on an air mattress and in this apartment or we called it the air mattress era, and

Jonas26:57

And you were just two, two people working?

Ryan Zurrer26:59

Two of us, and I think we've maybe started to bring on the third was Caroline. who's, who's fantastic. and she really helped professionalize the business. but we kind of scoffed at the ridiculousness of this Bancor ICO. We're like, this is ridiculous. It's probably, you know, five guys and laptops in an apartment who just raised 120 million. And we just sort of looked at each other and realized what we said, because we were two guys with laptops and an apartment with 150 million.

And I just kind of like turned back to my computer. Like we had not said anything. Uh, and so that was, There was certainly a moment for me where I had realized that like this thing was getting really serious. and

Jonas27:42

oh, only when you, you already had 150 million that you could deploy, right.

Ryan Zurrer27:46

150 million AUM. So like deployed capital in.

Jonas27:50

And is it just your and his money or is it like,

Ryan Zurrer27:52

no, no, I was mostly, it was mostly investors. Olaf had done great work in the early going of, of, of Polychain of bringing on Andreessen and bring it on USV and bringing on some Jump trading and, and, and some really like big ticket, high signal investors. but then at that time, like we're trying to do deals with half our time and fundraise with half our time.

And it was like, but you don't in reality, we're just working 200% of the time we're doing full-time deal on full-time, full-time fundraising. And, and just, you know, we're really the only crypto fund at that moment that had gotten scale and professionalized and so on and so forth. and so, there was just remarkable interest around the fund at that time.

It's much different environment today. You know, crypto investing is, I don't want to say democratize, but someone would, someone could argue that it's democratized and that there is so many in that like people who are not crypto native or starting funds and all of these things. so it's a much different competitive environment today.

But at that time we were really, for all intents purposes, the only game in town, there was, you know, there was Metastable but they weren't really taking money. And, so it was kind of us or us for awhile, you know, it was pretty wild. And then incidentally, I actually think about this quite.

I

One of the most successful 4 months of venture capital

found out about this a few weeks ago. So in a four month period, we did, the Tezos SAFT round, the Filecoin SAFT round which we led the Polkadot SAFT round, which we led and the Dfinity SAFT round, which we led plus the Coinbase growth round. All of those companies at some point or projects at some point have today, or are above $50 billion, dollars which makes that Polychain fund.

One era that four month era, one of the greatest vintages in the history of venture capital, Olaf is, is pretty quiet guy. And so he doesn't talk too much about that and I'm more focused on dialectic these days. So we don't, you know, we don't let go out and publish, publish this too much, but, you know, just like facts are facts and that's probably one of the most prolific, four month eras of investing in the history of venture capital.

VCs already make a 10x by the time of the ICO
Jonas30:04

Yeah. I can imagine, cause the ICO's were already like pennies on a dollar, but you had even better deals because even the ICO was probably

Ryan Zurrer30:12

already for us for most, most part.

Jonas30:17

Damn, that's crazy. Cause I was in, probably my worst investment now it's not the worst, but I was in the Tezos ICO and back holder.

didn't do bad. It didn't lose money, but it's very sad that he doesn't, it's not the top 10

Ryan Zurrer30:31

In crypto to terms crypto terms. Nobody's like happy with it today. but like if you would have given that return profile, it's like, you know, a guy over here at Glencore, like he'd get a promotion from that. Right.

That'd be the investment of his life. And in fact you do see that where w where I saw a fund a couple of weeks ago, raise an extreme amount of money off of, off of a couple of ICO's that they had done, or like layer one funding rounds that they had done of projects that had like, I think maybe like 15 extra 10 xed, something like that.

Like the entire course of what, what it is today from the like pre. ICO SAFT round. And I'm just like in crypto, like that is it's not even table stakes. Like you're not, you're not outperforming ETH at that point. Right. And you're, and so if you're not outperforming ETH, you gotta really have a strong look in the mirror. like what am I doing here?

Is Ryan Zurrer a Billionaire?
Jonas31:30

yeah. Okay. That's I like that statement. I don't know if they're insensitive to ask, but are you a billionaire?

Ryan Zurrer31:35

Uh, it's not. And, uh, it's not something I really spent a lot of time thinking about, to be honest with you.

Jonas31:41

Okay.

Ryan Zurrer31:42

Uh, incidentally, we do have Saphire. Which is an internal, tool that we offer for member families here at dielectric, that gives you a full consolidation of all of your wealth.

So it tells you all of your crypto wealth, your banking, your real estate, your, you know, your off-chain assets, collectibles, art, consolidates it all into one thing. And that visual of the look, what is my asset allocation split is something that's very, very important to me. Yeah. yeah.

Beeple Human One Auction
Jonas32:13

yeah. Then let's go to this one. I wanted to show you this video, which is nothing new for you, but I would like to relive this moment with you where we're seeing here, the video, let's just play the video and then you react afterwards.

Ryan Zurrer32:38

I'm in the back of a fundraiser. I've been raising money for maps. The multidisciplinary association of psychedelic science led by Rick doblin. And it, at this moment, we're in the back of this party and we just flipped up the laptop to bid on this. Uh,

wow. While we're at this party.

Jonas32:56

And w how is it? Like you just, you, you just click a button or are you talking to someone?

Ryan Zurrer33:00

Uh, I'm doing both because like, at that level of auction, so an evening sale, which you don't can often get it well into eight figures.

you do have someone on the line case, the connection you don't have in the back of this house, right there, just in this guy's kitchen, like okay. So anything could have happened. Okay.

Jonas33:20

Cause I was thinking that you would be that this is full concentration. But you make it sound that it's ah, I was just in the kitchen doing this thing, you know, like

Ryan Zurrer33:31

I almost went down on my cell phone.

We thought we were going to get just crushed, like, you know, Cohen was in the room and, and, other like big collectors, like Guggenheim are in the room and stuff like that. Who's Cohen sorry. Uhm Steve Cohen. The multi-billionaire hedge fund manager. Who's who also has a multi-billion dollar art collection.

you know, Justin Sun. who Justin Sun is rumored to have made somewhere in the tens of billions last year in, MEV. and, we know that he's a big Beeple fan and we know that he almost took the 5,000 days even higher than 69 million. And so we know that, he had interest and these are guys, who've just like, you know, just beyond our scale.

Right? Like they wanted it, they were taking it.

I've probably watched this 20 times. but it's just us like completely freaking out the entire time and then celebrate in the end. We joke around that it was good that we were not at the evening sale because, um, we would've just been a scene. Like because you were just so happy Yeah. We were just so excited. You know, we got it for a lot less than we were expecting it to go for.

It's just so quick as well. It's just like a second.

So that's an interesting thing. The, my, my friend, who is the king of a crossover between art and crypto, he is legit OG crypto, Jon Chu, who actually did the first SAFT with me. and he had run Sotheby's for decade in Asia when I was doing renewables in the two thousands. And, he told me the night before he said, add energy to the auction.

He said, add energy. Yeah. Be on top of it. You know, don't slow play it. and just see where the chips lie. You know, what your limit is, you know, where you're going to go. And just like be high energy. To that point. I took this down for at least 4 million less than. I then I probably would have, if I had slow played it and people thought like, oh, he's gassing out.

But the second somebody bid, I was on top of them. And you can,

Jonas36:18

it's just clear that it's just the step up has to be a million. You cannot go half a million steps?

Ryan Zurrer36:23

the step after, I think after the step after, so it was steps of a hundred K and then 500 K and then a million. And I think it was at 500 K steps.

When we finally sort of closed it out at 25, but this is funny because never regrets. I'm sending 1209 at 25 million

so this is a cut.