TRANSCRIPT: In The Name of Gratitude with Dr Michael Lennox

Christopher Fern00:02

Welcome to the mindful money podcast. This podcast is a weekly exploration into a new philosophy of money through psychology philosophy and practical wisdom. In this episode of the mindful money podcast.


And I had to declare bankruptcy because I couldn't afford my credit bills. That was not a difficult experience for me.

Whereas I think a lot of people face the idea of bankruptcy is terrible and shameful and awful. I just saw it as a structural change that was matching the inner and outer shifts of my life. As we've been talking about, I just let it happen.

Christopher Fern00:38

All right, everybody. Welcome back to the mindful money podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Fern, and I'm really excited to welcome Dr. Michael Lennox onto the show. Today. I've known Dr. Michael Lennox for a number of years, and he is a spiritual teacher, a psychologist and astrologer, and an expert in dreams and somebody that I turn to quite frequently for a lot of insight, which we'll get into here on the show.



Oh, so good to be here, Chris. I'm really glad you asked me. No

Christopher Fern01:07

problem, Michael. And I appreciate you for saying yes, thanks so much. So let's just dive right into the topic here. Uh, and I'll ask, um, I ask everybody on the show. This question to start. I think it's a really potent one. I think you'll like it.


Oh, oh no pressure

Christopher Fern01:22

on me. Really simple. Just be honest. What is money to you now? And how has that changed from when you were.


Oh my God. Oh my God. What a, well, first of all, money now is simply energy. There's a field of energy. We call it money. It's not what people think it is. It's a complete illusion from the perspective of what we think it is, but what it actually is, is better described as a field of energy.

Blow through it's part of us. We connect to it and we can work with it, connects to the flow of money in a conscious way. That's how I would describe it. Now, when I was young, I was hit instead of the mythologies about money doesn't pay mother and my father had, so my father's favorite topic was you can't go first class.

Don't go at all. Now my father was about as far for first class, as you can get, including. Monetarily far from first class, right? I mean, he was not an earner. And he came from people who work coal miners in Eastern Pennsylvania. So his perspective of money was, it was something I'm interpreting this, his perspective of money was that it was something that outside there people may be having.

He didn't that first class and going first class was the thing to aspire to. And if you couldn't do that, then just give up the goats. So his message for money was whatever it is, we don't have it. My mother had a similar sort of disconnect for money though. Sheep ultimately loved money. And as we grew up and I became an adult, watched her in her life, she enjoyed having it inspected.

But her mythology about money was that money made people bad that people who had money were inherently less valuable human beings than people who struggled or didn't have. And that came from her mother to generational perspective. You know, her parents were like, you know, my grandfather was a card carrying communist who worked for the city of New York as a social worker, really interested in people and helping and the pool.

From that perspective, though, people with money were the enemy. And we, as kids were raised in very upper middle class communities, but had very little money. So we were the kids on the wrong side of the tracks. So the message about money for a mom was don't have money. Cause look at all those people who live up the hill, they're assholes.

We're not, and that's because of money. So in my young adult life, I who I think have an inborn sense of abundance has a birthright and money as a lovely and wonderful thing had to plow through decades, at least one and a half decades of just trying to get through their messages about money so that I could discover what it meant to me, myself, which I probably didn't come into until well into my third.

Christopher Fern04:21

Wow. So what was that experience like? I mean, there's so many people that echo those same beliefs that you just mentioned, that your mother and your father had. And I do look up to you in some ways as somebody who's transcended in a sense, those beliefs and those archetypical stories, what was that process like?


Well, first of all, thank you. I humbly received your, your, you know, the way you see that in me. And it took work. It was hard, hard work for me. It was almost as if my life was going to give me this opportunity whether I wanted to or not. Because when I was sort of, when I got into my early thirties, I stumbled into the business end of the entertainment industry.

Um, just as I got a job, like I got a decent job at a studio and because I was talented and smart and visible, I worked hard, not smart. I made sure that everybody knew who I was in my corporate experience. That was about 10 years long. I went from like a middle level management position to a VP making six figures at Playboy enterprises over the span of 10 years.

And with every promotion that came along the amount of money, more than I was making, the raises that I were being given were really alarmingly large compared to what most people could expect in a career, which is interesting to me today as a spiritual teacher, looking back at that, it was almost like the universe.

Forcing me to look at the flow of money was there for me. And it was going to show me that whether I was ready or not. So I had this interesting experience of becoming suddenly the top earner, not only in my family, but in my family's history as a pretty young man. And what it allowed me to do was without having to.

Too badly or difficult than without a lot of difficulty. I got to look at my sense of deserving of money that I, how would I say this now? I would say. In our pure in body mint before we get squeezed and formed by our families of origin. I believe that an alignment with abundance and good with a capital G as our birthright is the true state of our inbox.

And that every idea and message of, I don't deserve that, or it's not for me or money comes and then go, these are all myths that we get taught. And so in my thirties, as I was looking at, oh, wow, I have this mythology about money and that mythology about money. But when I look over here at money, uh, money was flowing and growing.

W, you know, countered to the myths I may have had about it. So in fact, I would say my journey felt easier to accept abundance as my birthright than the way I watch people who struggle with it, who are still stuck in their own mythologies about. So I, I, you know, I'm 57, this was, you know, more than 20 years ago.

So I'm, I may be over romanticizing how easy this was. It may have been more difficult than I'm remembering, but the, but the, but the salaries kept raising. And I kept saying yes to that. I didn't question it. So for that arc of 10 years, going from earning, like, you know, a low five figure income to six figures after a time it happened slowly enough that as I was.

Perceiving my life. I accepted the growth because there it was, it was happening. I didn't, you know, didn't have. Any choice, but to accept it in my own perspective, because there it was, I wasn't going to say no. And so the world was teaching me something that I wasn't necessarily aware that I was struggling to learn.

So again, I guess, I guess just to repeat myself, I'll say, I think it was easy, but asked me 25 years ago. And I might've said this is horrifyingly difficult.

Christopher Fern08:36

Yeah. Dig into that potentially horrible, difficult moment. I know you love this. Um, because what I wonder is what you experienced as you were getting those raises and specifically with regard to your life circumstances, the decisions that you were making and how you were teasing apart, that mythos to give some context to this, a lot of, uh, my philosophy, the mindful money philosophy, what people, what I noticed.

As soon as they receive more, as they say yes to more, they also tend to grow their lifestyle in a way that doesn't allow them, the breathing room that they hope for by saying yes. And I wonder if that happens.


Yeah, well, it did happen, uh, because of course that is what happens is that, you know, sort of, you go from hand to mouth living where the hand is really the only thing, putting food in the mouth, right.

And then you get more money and suddenly the hand has a wriggle on it and a glove. The mouth is, you know, target it up with lipstick and fillers and plumpers, and it's like same hand, same mouth all made. The hand is now expensive and the mouth is now expensive and you're really living the same hand to mouth experience.

And so

Christopher Fern09:42

that certainly.


So that's certainly did happen to be, but it didn't happen in an outrageous way. Like I didn't overdo that and I didn't ever grab more than was my sort of, you know, comfortable, um, you know, uh, ability to receive. And, and while I watched people, you know, making the $40,000 a year, you know, salary and they're leasing a car that's, you know, $750 a month.

And, um, I never felt preyed to that. Although I did lease that BMW C3 Roadster when I got the six figure job, of course.

Christopher Fern10:22

Well, then you have the six figure job, right.


But I will tell you, Chris, and there is a bankruptcy in the story and a loss of everything that wound up being. Absolute best thing that ever happened to me, way more than suddenly making six figures was suddenly allowing myself to go down to a level of prosperity that was bare, bare minimum.

And this happened in the middle of my great spiritual awakening and expansion. So what I really learned about abundance and prosperity happened in that period of my life in my late thirties, early for. So,

Christopher Fern11:00

what does it take for somebody who is experiencing that contraction? Who's experiencing that, uh, let's say you get fired from a job or you get a reduction in salary, or you get a little squeeze rather than a complete bankruptcy and a loss of everything.

Where do you think that tips for people as, as a psychologist, as a spiritual leader?


Yes. As both a psychologist and a spiritual teacher, the answer is gratitude for what you have. Any time, there's a longing for more, whether that longing is an aspirational longing of, I want more, or it's a longing for more out of fear.

Like I need more because I'm feeling scared that they don't have enough people turn away from what they have. And gratitude is. Energetic state that implies flow, energetic flow, right? Even, even looking at a beautiful sunset. What happens? You sort of get filled with a little Tyrannus your heart opens a little, the stomach goes buzzy buzz.

You have this experience of the beauty of life. That's gratitude and action passively created because you're being stimulated by a beautiful visage. And suddenly you feel for that one minute that you're looking at the beautiful sunset. At one with a universe and a feeling of energetic abundance through the gratitude journal, viewing of the beautiful sunset.

If we could do that as a practice to our money and our current state of every need is met, I have a roof over my head, those kinds of appreciations for what is. So without looking outside, down the, you know, energetic street of, oh, but what if I don't have money in three weeks? Right? It's. The flow. What are the most profound moments of my entire life around gratitude for what I had came one day during this very difficult period, I had very, very little money.

I had declared bankruptcy. I was living in a tiny little, very beautiful guest house in a, in a backyard in Holland. But I had nothing. And one morning I was out of money. I did not have rent to pay yet. I had $5 in my pocket and that was about all I had that day. And I went over to All-American burger where I used to go periodically for.

Scrambled egg breakfast. And there was this homeless dude who he might've not been homeless. He might've lived in like a board and care for adult mentally ill, but he was one of those guys, you know, who sort of wanders the street. And he would hang out at all American burger every once in a while they would let him push a broom through the place.

He was very sweet and kind, and we had a relationship we would interact and talk. And every once in a while, If I had some money in my pocket, which is not something that I do on the rec, like I, I'm not a giver of money to homeless people. It, it it'll happen if in the moment there's a feeling going on instinct or an availability for it.

And there was with this guy. So on this particular morning, with $5 in my pocket, I suddenly realized that I had enough money to buy. The eggs and a cup of coffee. Now, three days before that I didn't have enough money to buy the eggs and the coffee, and this guy came up and bought me a cup of coffee. Wow.

And so these two experiences that happened two or three days ago. I felt so abundant in those two moments. Beyond that day, I drove the Z three Roadster off the lot beyond the moment where I've moved into my own two bedroom apartment that I was able to fill with rugs and Swedish deco antiques. The most abundant I ever felt was that day when I could buy a cup of coffee or the day I couldn't buy the cup of coffee and the homeless guy stepped in.

That was a feeling that I've never forgotten because the feeling of abundance, it wasn't, I'm not talking about something that was a casual passing thought. It wasn't one of those forced montra moments where I was declaring that I felt abundant though. Maybe I really didn't. I really felt like I was taken care of by the hand of God that week.

And I, that to me was the beginning of an Ascension. Um, to the level of abundance that I get to enjoy today with my thriving business, that is enormously grown since those years in 2003 and 2004, when I was just finding my way after my great spiritual awakening,

Christopher Fern15:43

that story leaves me almost speechless, uh, B because.

It devalues what we value as money. And, and this is what makes this is yeah. So intellectually I'm, I'm, I'm locked, but that's great. But emotionally I'm in this place where you had an experience, which I hope everybody could have, and that's not to not have money. It's not to be poor, whatever that means, whatever that means.

That's not to be down and out or, you know, not even able to give a homeless guy food it's to recognize that. The dollar


isn't the currency. That's right. And in the moment, money is flowing through all of us because money is energy. And in that moment, it wasn't less than it was now because how can abundance and energetic concept be less or more?

That day? My life was filled with abundance. I might define my above. Fullness today differently than I would have in 2003. When you know, an extra dollar 50 allowed me to have a cup of coffee and today I can make my own coffee and endlessly, I could make more coffee than I could possibly drink today.

Cause I got a pint in the half of, you know, Ground Dunkin donuts beams in my cabinet, but every moment our needs are being met by the flow of consciousness that includes money. And people don't recognize that at all, because they're looking at the horizon of what they don't have.

Christopher Fern17:11

That's exactly where I was about to go.

And so they they're doing that. And so then when. If money doesn't have any value, really, if the value is in the energy and in the gratitude, aside from gratitude, how do you think the state of money and how people value? It affects how we feel. Also recognizing that we can, we have control over our


feelings towards.

When it comes to thoughts and feelings, right? That this is the law of cause and effect in action. Um, every thought creates form. And I know a lot of people in the world of manifestation get very attached to the idea of, Ooh, if every thought creates a form, I'm going to be busy, creating lots of great forms with.

Um, like forms of money and the forms of more and forms of abundance. But we also want to like dial way, way, way, way, way back and understand that one of the most dominant forms that a feeling or a thought will create as a feeling feelings are forms. It's a form based on a thought. So if the thought is I'm broke, the feeling is I'm anxious.

That thought I'm broke has a creative power. It's creating the feeling of anxiousness because my belief is my needs aren't being met or won't be met. So I would encourage people to dial back into the idea of. The first thought you have of I'm broke, you can't control, but you can certainly control the second thought.

You can change that thought you can stop that thought. And even if it's just as simple as replacing the thought of I'm broke with all my needs are met today. And so it is. Becomes the sort of tool to rewire the pervasive repetitive thought of. I don't have enough, I don't have enough. I don't have enough.

And so, you know, I don't work with money in the way that you do in a consciousness teaching correctly. But I certainly work everyday day in and day out with people trying to encourage them to become more disciplined about what and how they're thinking, because it is the only thing that we can control.

So certainly one of the first steps would be to have a person. And I'm sure you have a lot of experiences with Chris has to start getting people to pay attention. To the random, almost semi-conscious habitual thoughts that they're having about money, that they don't even know that they're having. So they, how would they even know that they can change those thoughts?

Because they're not even aware enough to be having them. So the first step would be awareness of what your thoughts about money are. What are you thinking and feeling when you're writing a check? What are you thinking and feeling when you receive a check? And can you find a way to have the feeling of writing a check and receiving the check, be the same.

Christopher Fern20:03

Yeah. W I, I have never asked that question, but it's one I'm definitely going to incorporate. The way that you approach money because I've always, and, and people that work with me would say that I've approached it from a very analytical state, recognizing that it is a function in the perception of it as a function of how we feel and how we feel is driven by our values and what we value is driven by our beliefs.

So. We have this thought that says, as you said, you know, I broke and that creates the anxiety. And then from that anxiety point, our scope is limited. And with that, yup.


Right. And right now we're constricted and have we're preserving. So every thought or choice we make is coming through the lens and seeing the world as constricted instead of seeing the world as you know, abundant.

Christopher Fern20:49

Right. And that mechanic is the one I have only focused on. So for you to say something like, how can you. The writing of the check and the receiving of the check, be the same feeling, not only as a great tangible goal for people to have, but also a really good grounding point and all of this, Hey, here's how the car works.

So what, you know,


I get a lot of pleasure out of this, putting this into action. You know, one is in the form of. Tipping and grab being, you know, gratuitous with my money. I'm very generous in that act like I'm grateful that in a pandemic I'm grateful that people will deliver food right. To my. And I'm grateful for the privilege of wealth that I have that allows me to afford that in a moment when many, many people are struggling so profoundly that they wouldn't, that this conversation would be irrelevant to someone who really is struggling with their next need being met.

You know? So one of the ways that I practice the idea of being grateful about the flow out as I am with the flow in. Rewarding the person who brings it to my door, whereas 10, 15 years ago, my thought would've been, well, wait a minute, wait a minute. That tip is more money. That's costing me more. They don't deserve that much money.

I have a 15% where today it's like, no, how can I. Put out money in response to my gratitude, that abundance flows to me, and that opens things up greatly on a, on an energetic level. And yet your analytical approach applies to this as well. And so I think there's a, there is a nice balance of, you know, analytically looking at the beliefs that you have and therefore the behaviors that those beliefs create and you can shift and adjust them.

But there's also the. Sort of right-brained intuitive approach. That's saying the exact same thing, which is it's just flowing. Let it feel as good flowing out as it's slowing in part, I think people would have trouble living that until they have enough room. That that's what's happening, which is interesting because the proof is in the pudding.

All they have to do is turn around, look at their past and recognize that every knee they ever had gotten that.

Christopher Fern23:00

Yep. And that's actually the first, very first chapter in my book is you've always been okay. And the very first principle that I teach is the idea of what happens when you don't have money.

What happens when you have money? Just brilliant. How did your parents believe about money? Where do you, what do you want? And there's always a separation for most people.


You know, I remember being in my early twenties where hand to mouth living really was the only way to be at, you know, 25, 26 years old.

And there was something that I would feel. When something unexpected would come along moments after an unexpected piece of cash came along, I saw my friends say things like, oh man, I just got $500 from blah, blah, blah. And my tires. And so the perspective was like they were being punished for the receiving of the gifts and therefore they extra money was negated somehow because you know, life always comes along and ruin.

Christopher Fern24:05

And meanwhile, they have the money to


do that right now. I never felt that way. Even, even then in my twenties, I remember privately having an astonishing thought by recognizing this was just the spiritual teacher in me in nation form, because it's not like I didn't like, I didn't step onto that path in my thirties.

I've been on the spiritual path since I was 15 years old. I just didn't devote to it as a profession. So the second half of my life, but I always had those. Ideas and notions of how to view life and consciousness brewing. It was remarkable and completely obvious to me that this worked like clockwork.

This wasn't random. It didn't happen some of the times it happened. Every single time I had a need, the money was there from crowns that needed to be put into my mouth to car work. That was unexpected. Anything that needed an extra bump of money was always either proceeded or posts. By the money itself.

And that was obvious to me.

Christopher Fern25:15

Yep. I saw the same thing and, uh, it got me thinking about that. That's the all you've always been okay. If I, you know, I've had periods where I don't have a lot and I've had periods where I have a. Um, you are


still still

Christopher Fern25:29

shelter. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, so no matter what, you're always going to be careful, it might mean you need to downsize or release or let go, or maybe


absolutely got person gotta be responsible.

Christopher Fern25:40

Yeah. But you're always, so let's talk about that. I love that you mentioned responsibility because if we look at a person and their responsibility, you could say, well, they gotta, they gotta be able to. Make or generate or create or attract or perceive enough, which isn't the word I wanna use, but you get what I'm saying to mitigate and manage their desires and their needs.

Oh, needs being a, a word I don't even like to use their desires and their demands. Right. So, you know, you have this money that comes in and quickly goes out the door because you have the receiving and then the, the demand and it's just a flow and it's great. It's a flow and it's great. Yeah. Well, you get to a point where the amount that you're receiving starts to tip above that it's still hand to mouth, right?

To how to receive the money and have it go out the door. It's still hand to mouth, but it's always there and you always have the hand and you always have something in it and you can always put it in the mouth, but there comes a tipping point. What do you think creates that tipping point where responsibility isn't even like it's done, it's handled.

It's not.


Well, I think you're talking about attachment and you're like talking about being attached to the things in the forms. When we started this little part of our conversation, when talking about how sometimes forms change and you, you, you have to adjust, you have to be responsible. And when you are attached to the way your life is structured and something shifts and changes, and you're not willing to let go of the old form, you're gonna struggle.

I remember in the recession in 2017, Um, suddenly the world was changing, especially around real estate, right? In a remarkable way, not just like something that this person felt or that person felt the whole world was bumping up against changes in the value of real estate. I have had many, many, many clients who are wealthy and famous and TV and film people.

So I've, I've worked with people who live in that world of abundance, where it's easy to get very attached. And I remember sitting there with this. I will not name her, but she's well enough known that many, many people would know. This person has a famous television actors sitting there in my consulting space, desperate to hold onto the two of her houses.

She, she doesn't need the second house by the way, she just owns. And, you know, her concern is I got to hold on to my house. I got ahold of, and now trust me, she lost that house because the world was changing and she was attached and she was attached. She was living in a world that no longer exists. Before that recession having two houses was privileged.

And if you could afford it, that was great. But if you weren't like, you know, in the 1% you were only in the top 5% and you had your two houses and the, you know, you were upside down and one of them, the world's shift would require sell the house. I'm not even sure how we work through that. But the issue was that the house, the issue wasn't money, the issue was attachment to having two houses.

When the world had changed so much, that that was no longer an accurate reflection of her inner and outer abundance. Not because their consciousness was bad, not because she had done something wrong, not because she didn't deserve the second house. But because the world had fundamentally changed and the, the definition of abundance through the real estate market changed because the collective was crashing at that time.

And so it does require flexible. I did at that time before, like a year before that wonderful, you know, you know, gratitude moment at, at American burger, I S I drove a $50,000 car and had a two-part to two bedroom. I had to change those things. I had to move out of the apartment. I had to give back the car and slap my rollerblades on and move through LA for two years without driving a car.

I allowed my attachments to those forms to go away. And that's how it was able to follow the flow of my abundance that went to a trickle for a little bit in 2003 and four, and is now a fully flooding faucet because I got out of the way of letting things crumble. If that's what was coming over the horizon and doing my best, not to judge that or run screaming.

Yeah, once again,

Christopher Fern30:05

it is. And once, once again, I'm in dislike tr almost transcendent, unable to form word space. The thing that really comes to me though is, and this is something I personally struggle with. So I'm really interested, not just for the sake of the listeners, but also for me. Gurus people who are high performers, people who are the, you know, guru lifestyle, where they've got the big house, they've got the nice car, they've got their investments.

Um, and they have a faucet or a siphon, a huge amount of abundance coming through. Tout frequently, um, the importance of ritual routine and habit, and how that groove that you create almost creates an, a standard for your living, your lifestyle, your desire, this disability to say, no, I'm not going to. So, so it's interesting because what you're talking about is the allowing, but I also am very aware of.

The power of no, the power of not allowing the power of holding a boundary, the power of doing the same things for intentionally doing the same things for an intentional reason in order to create a space. Energetically or to create an emotional space or to honor or whatever, and some of that's location or a thing dependent.

And some of it isn't. Can you speak to some of that because there's a piece in here about no. And then there was a piece in here about yes. And I think knowing when to use the two is really important.


You know, I have a, I have a tagline, you know, moniker in my business, uh, Dr. Michael Lennox, you're your ambassador to conscious embodiment.

The reason why I chose that idea and use the word embodiment all the time is because I'm very focused on the body. Almost literally that our bodies are only one portion of our conscious awareness. But they're the only ones that are actually present in the moment in time. The body is present in this moment.

And therefore the flow that we talk about the flow of money as a field that flows in and out where we connect to that flow is through the body. So if it's a Tuesday, your body on that, Tuesday is connected to the flow on that Tuesday. But if you're thinking about Wednesday or Monday, you pull your body out of the

Christopher Fern32:38


I want to pause to make sure I understand. When you say the flow of the Tuesday, are you talking about whatever's going on on the Tuesday or the groove that you've made on it?


Well, both really let's let's, I'm glad you asked her the distinction. Let's think for a moment, for the point, I'm trying to make that the flow that I'm talking about is the flow of money.

That's out there in a general sort of way that we want to tap into, and that we tap into the flow as it looks on a Tuesday, because that's the day that we're in. And so the point I'm just trying to, I'll just jump to the final point. Chris, is that practices that get you in touch with your body in the day that you are in also put you in the best position to be in flow, whatever flow you're talking about, trying to be in.

That flow happens at the level of the body. The mind is not located in the body. We don't quite know where on what the mind is, but it can think about the past and it can think about the future. And then you're not in flow because the flow doesn't exist in the pastor in the future. It only exists in the now moment.

So if it only exists in the now moment and. Body is the only aspect of our consciousness. That's also in the now moment, the best way to tap into flow in the way that you're speaking about those gurus and people of consciousness who have habits and practices of meditation, gratitude practices, prayer, and affirmation.

Those are practices in the moment that keep us in the flow on a Tuesday. Interesting. So when I, we talked about gratitude as part of the flow, that's just not like a trope. There are, I have a practice of gratitude that I do in my, in my home with Sage and moving through each room of my house, expressing gratitude for the conscious.

That that room might offer me. If I started my kitchen, I'm grateful my home and my hearth and all of the ways I support and nurture myself, I pass by the dining room and I say, thank you for letting me share my bounty with others, because that's where I share my bounty with others. I turn to my plants and I'm grateful for my connection to the great mother, through my relationship with these plants.

I come to my computer and express gratitude for the world, receiving the wisdom that is ready to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Done, you know, I'm in the bedroom or I'm grateful for sleeping and dreaming and sex and all the, you know, bathroom for intimacy and, you know, being with my most intimate, scary parts and my poopy smell and all that stuff.

So that practice takes 90 seconds, but it's something I do daily. Because it puts me in the flow of gratitude and the day I have meditation practice, I learned meditation when I was 15. I probably meditated twice a year until I was in my thirties. And then I began to develop a discipline of meditation to the point where it's so ingrained in me to be mindful of my breath and my body.

Um, and my body meant that that, that I'm in a constant state of prayerfulness and meditative perspective every hour of my day. Nah, I'm human. I get pulled out of it. All I needed to do was go on Facebook and see another stupid, you know, conspiracy theory posts, and I'd lost my, you know, center, but I have all of these practices that are designed to remind my body that it's Tuesday.

And in this Tuesday, all needs are met. I'm in the flow there's money. It comes and goes, and then I'm in a position to receive better because I'm not spending as much head time. Thinking about the past or worrying about the future.

Christopher Fern36:24

What would you say to somebody who says that you're too attached to those actions and you can feel good without them?


I would say when you've done it, the way I've done it for some disciplined period of time, I'd be happy to talk to you about it. But if you haven't, I'm not interested in your opinion.

Christopher Fern36:43

Okay. Fair enough. I find that there's that really big bifurcation of the people who have that ritual and have that routine and have the thing.

Right. And I have my. It might take a while and that's okay for now, but you know, they have the thing. And then there's the other group who, I don't know that they I'm sure they have a thing what they don't say. So, and it it's like the, you should be able to do without all of this stuff. And then there's the, well, you know, do you need here's here's an interesting counter.

Do you need, do you need those things or are they just strategic points of alignment based on the flow?


I would say. About five years ago in my development, I passed across a threshold that I live in. Now that the answer to that question is no, do not need them live in flow, have cleaned up. What I feel is like all my trauma, I've cleaned up every bit of childhood trauma that was inflicted upon me.

And I have a freedom that took about 50 years to work through. Right. And so from this place that I live in, now, the actions that I take become choices that I make. I don't sit everyday for 20 minutes. April of 2018 was this sort of, I had this kind of spiritual expansive moment after which I stopped having to sit everyday for 20 minutes.

Whereas before April of 2018, I sat every morning for 20 minutes and I didn't leave the house if I hadn't done that. And I had done that discipline for at least 5, 6, 7, or eight years of like, Nope, can't leave the house until I've met. So there, there is an experience that I have had in my own journey.

Where, because I've done enough of the heavy lifting for long enough that I get to enjoy a kind of organic alignment in my body and in my flow, just because of how I live. But I got here from thousands of hours of the chop wood, carry water, sit down, meditate, ritualized things, do more training, you know, blue, another retreat, another, you know, healing, you know, process.

Right. So, but that took 50 years that like, that didn't happen from like, I took a class and I read.

Christopher Fern39:07

Of course. And, and in that 50 years you have used different tools to get yourself into that state of flow. And the one that I love that you've said that just, you know, not even five years ago. Yeah. My math is right.

Not even five years ago, you were in this place where you wouldn't leave the house unless you did the meditation. And also I heard earlier that, you know, matching the flow of a Tuesday. So what it sounds like is for you, the flow of any day was no until no one less. Because, which do you feel like that inhibited your flow or added to your.


No. I mean, think about what, what came from that, like how we know it did, it was because it naturally evolved until the point where I expanded to a, to an, to an environment that didn't need it anymore. So it had to have been purposeful and valuable to have that discipline constantly. Even now, maybe I stayed too long at the fair, who knows, but I do feel.

One chapter led to the next chapter, which led to the next chapter and led to the next chapter. And I I'm still alive and in a body and holding breath, I don't expect to not have new, more expansive experiences of my own spiritual expansion, you know, as I grow, uh, Because we are constantly sort of growing and evolving.

Listen, this would be a good time to let you know that, that I'm also sitting in a decision in my personal life right now to move and up my experience of rent by any normous amount, because my