Disrupting Education in Digital Construction, ft. Michael McGuire
By Stephen Drew
May 10, 2022
0:00 / 59:48
Stephen Drew00:02

Although everyone, it is seven o'clock on a Friday that is dedication, dedication on both parts. And we're recording this podcast and the powers of the incident. That's one of the awesome things. Let's get to it. I've got awesome guests here, which I've kind of known a little bit on LinkedIn and we've been planning this talk for a while.

So I want to discover a lot. So I'm joined here by the FA fantastic Michael McCoy and Michael, you are from N C O am. I dropped a clanger before we started, which is new college Lantack shirt. When I said Lancaster at the correct myself, there is a deaf. Differentiator.

Michael McGuire00:45

There's a geographical deference.


Stephen Drew00:47

Yeah. There's a map. There's a massive one. Is there it's like when people say, where are you from? Steve? Are you from Ireland? Well, there's a big difference, but Michael, do you want to tell us for anyone that hasn't met you a little bit more about yourself,

Michael McGuire01:00

on what you're up to? Yeah, absolutely.

I, um, our lecture. With new Coley's Lennox shirt, nothing to do with Lancashire. Um, and I have been, this is my 20th year in education. Um, before that I was a structural steel fabricator. So whenever you're driving past schools, uh, colleges, offices, and you see the steel scale. And that was my job was actually manufacturing and addicting that, um, throughout my career I have, can I work then?

Not for about 12, 13, 14 years. When I was 24, I, I was Nate shift one evening in a factory and I looked at her window and I saw all the older guys. I'm no 47, but I saw all the guys at when I vote for if or if I've, and they're looked at much older because it's a hard job. It is a very rewarding job. And I thought to myself, I need to get out of this and I need to go and getting a design office.

Um, so I actually put myself through two evenings per week for two years. At the local college and got myself on each NC higher national certificate and CAD, which was just the engine, Eric computer aided design. Um, I've been really lucky. It's talk about taming. Um, at that point in Scotland, there were lots and lots of students come in through the cat.

Cool. That we're going into Architectural technology, um, saw the CAD course taught them AutoCAD. And back then it was also Architectural desktop. Maybe some of your viewers and yourself. I don't know whether you remember that, but Architectural desktop was a horrendous piece of. But, um, obviously the staple is AutoCAD and we taught people how to use AutoCAD.

We taught them how to do planning applications, building control, building warrant, that deeper thing. And off they went that done. I got a phone call after I'd completed to say, look, we are looking to create a brand new course. It's going to be Architectural technology, but it's going to focus on the social.

It's going to move from the drawing board and using AutoCAD using whatever the new Architectural software might be. It's focusing on that. And I was just really lucky to eat, play rate team. Um, and I got invaded at, they call each and from there on 20 years ago, we have completely rewritten the curriculum, um, and digital construction, many things, and as know what it is, what we do in.

Stephen Drew03:31

Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, I'm going to give you a round of applause. I should have tested it out if you hit that. My sound board works. That's awesome. Now you're going to have, you're going to have to, you mentioned a few things that now I jumped into the industry you, when MicroStation was knocking about.

So tell technically calves. I know right now it's an interesting time, isn't it? Because. And and arche cards or whatever. BIM as a methodology is slowly becoming the status quo. And I had an interest in topic of debate with, with a friend because 10 years ago, rather it was on the cusp. It was the kind of thing that was more adopted in Australia.

Very few people use it in the UK, but times have moved on. So I'd love to know a little bit about, you mentioned when you stopped. Doing this, or some course, you know, in the college, but how have you seen things move than over the last few years?

Michael McGuire04:28

Yeah, I, again, I mean, I see right place right time. And how lucky I am.

I've been teaching now for 20 years. So the students from 20 years ago that I was teaching are now themselves by managers, um, or, or, or running companies, their own companies, or working in some of the larger. Yeah, Architectural companies or, or did somebody engineering companies and they have helped me enormously, uh, by keeping my, my own skills up to date, but also helping us by design in the curriculum.

That that is a big, obviously a big difference. Um, what we're focusing on is my course specifically as Architectural technology, but end Glasgow. Absolutely. Spring-boarded about maybe even five or six years. It meets most companies made a massive leap towards ISO. Well, then the standard 1192 standards in that process, I have been really lucky because the companies that were early adopters, so that's coming and I would say, I know you're seeing it as kind of slow progress.

I've phone the opposite and the opposite. Yeah. And especially in Glasgow now we're seeing Edinburgh as well, lots and lots of companies, um, come to us. Um, we delivered obviously the HNC and the H N D. Um, so it's two years, of course, pretty much focuses in two years. It's written in a way that after the two years with those, they could go directly to university and they could go straight into your free, which would be the.

And those that are three or four universities that offer that wrote about Scotland for, for our students. But we've tended to find over the last five, six years, our students are going straight into industry, um, as Architectural technologists and they're being snapped up and for us that's because they knew Revvit skills and we made that decision.

I good number of years ago when rev, it was quite new or a desk. I think it was two years after they acquired that we had a course and we were delivering that, that wasn't my decision. That was people from industry who were saying, we can see the industry shifting towards that. And that's what you need to be teaching your students.


Stephen Drew06:47

what I can say on the recruitment front, most companies ask for rabbits. Th perhaps the people it's very good. The people he kept around and they were on the money. Right. So it was a good,

Michael McGuire07:02

good, interestingly, been able to use rev all, obviously there are people who can use wherever and then those people who usually river following a, would you say a very structured approach, right?

That's what these companies are looking for. Um, one of the things that we did, we we've tailored. There are our curriculum, a couple of things we've actually changed. I think what's that three or four things? No. In the past 20 years, um, we tried to create, it was most colleges and universities will do you try and create a curriculum?

That's quite flexible. It really struggles to keep up to date with how quickly the industry is changing. Right? So the more flexible our unit is, then you do what I mentioned rev, because what happens if wherever it disappears and it should replace by something else, or if you mentioned BS 1182 NPS 11, negative is replaced by ISO 19 6 50.

How do you have to then create a brand new unit? Got it so that you can deliver it. But what we found actually was, um, yes, the companies are looking for students right now that will be able to use rev it. But I would say even more of a scale is they're looking for students who can use either Ben 360 or the Autodesk construction cloud.

Right. For people who understand what a common data environment is that looking for people who can work from. Eh, sort of by my execution plan. So they're able to use that and find the project number, naming conventions and what works. So we use the work sets. What are the, the program of air collaboration schedule and things like that.

So a lot of the processes of, I would say the industry's moving away from you need to be able to use river and looking for a rev at scale that actually, no look, and can you use rev the way we need you to use river?

Stephen Drew08:48

Really interesting. I tell you what, cause one of my clients is. It's a software company, which, which focuses on building software for the CDE environment, common data environments, even I've had to learn, you know, these terms.

And I, I had, uh, read the training cost in 2014, right before I left Architecture. So I'd be incredibly rusting my car. I probably would need to go on your coasts. But when I, um, well, where I find it, well, I'd like to learn though is because now I'm 34 and so grew up in way. You have primary school, secondary school and the secondary school.

It didn't have sixth form or whatever. So you have to go to college, which was awesome because I probably was like freaking sweet. Cause you didn't have to wear a uniform. You basically, you stopped. You know, you as a person, you go to that step you're, you're a young adult. Basically. You have your hangovers, you, you kind of, you know, you, you, you make a few

Michael McGuire09:47


Yeah. I didn't do that. I was, uh, I was an adult landlord when I took the co-leads remember,

Stephen Drew09:53

well, fair enough. But my mom did the same thing. My mum didn't do the traditional route and, um, she regretted it and then she went back to, well, she went to. Open university and kind of got a degree and, um, yeah, I'm very proud of it for doing that because it doesn't really matter what age should do it.

If you kind of, you can, you can do add, but just so you know, in terms of your, your, your courses. So I can visualize them, is it an option that see now when I was 16 to 18, I can go into, um, your course Architecture. Technology is, is that how it works then? Pretty much.

Michael McGuire10:34

Yeah, pretty much. We have, um, we work directly with schools as well.

We had actually trained to, can I break that link of, um, schools have, uh, and this is, uh, I, we all know guidance teachers have, um, even in terms of what their daily education, as in their, their roots, our school's very much push if you're good at something. So, for example, an S if you like R and you're like Architecture, actually, you want to go, eh, one of the big universities and you want to be an architect, but it's not always the case.

I say, personally, I, I, and this is where those like a field architect, let's say straight off the bat, because when I was younger, I was Greta R and I was told. That when, because I was interested in architecture, you want to be an architect? I didn't have the grades to go to architecture school. I'm in Glasgow.

We have the Glasgow school of art. I was not talented enough or artistic enough to get there. And those are more technical architecture schools, Strathclyde. I didn't have the grades to get lead either. And, and leaf can have led me. A different pathway that went in is structural and construction. And it was more hands-on, which I will be honest, really that suit me.

I was that young day naive immature guy that definitely suited me. Um, but there are people who, many, many students that I have had who have attempted the Architectural route and thought it's not for. Yeah, I prefer the, the more technical side of it, the technical seed and the design. And we have had students who have maybe done 1, 2, 3 years of the Architecture route and then change their main income and the west they have that gains teacher had actually told them about that route has been a different route altogether.

Yeah. So typically that's a big challenge. We find in our college as schools, what a push pupils that at that university. And Kayden's teachers don't know enough about other disciplines, structural design build and service, silver CCMTP facade, design, and TD at the Zane. It's just Architecture ever did your CS or your car and your lake Architecture.

So it needs to be Architecture. And so we've trained to break that up and let people see those actually quite a few different options that are within it as our route that you could actually.

Stephen Drew12:54

Um, I'm going to give you a clap for that. I love that. I got

Michael McGuire12:57

a funny story because I saw there was a field architect.

Stephen Drew13:00

Well, I think I'm not qualified. So I'm also tell docs. Actually, you go where you all go your different ways and you're so right. I think that, you know, the term architect on one night, Very definitive and I ever had this incredibly broad. And yet I find a lot of people go into architecture and then maybe they become a BIM Coordinator or they become a BIM Manager and they kind of go sideways and move around what I was going to tell you.

And you laugh is that in sewing? I went to co-sign and college and it was, I'm not going to knock it because I've got a good experience because silent college, I don't regret that, but I always remember, I went to the Korea counselor and I, and it, and he was talking about when you go to the university. I want to be an architect.

And he was like, oh no, actually it was in secondary school where the guy in the college told you, and I said, I want to be an architect. And he said, yeah, you need to do maths to do architecture. And you don't, you don't do maths or science. So I'm not sure if you can do architecture. And I really wound me up and I was like, well, I've got to show them.

So I think graphic design that did it, I did geography and I did design the technology, which all laterally kind of skills. I think you use an architecture, you've got the graphics aspect. You need to know about cities infrastructure, especially if you're doing large scale and it come on, we're talking about it.

It's handy skill to have either limitations, all this stuff. So anyways, I got there in the end and I think that's a classic case of, as you're saying, like, The Korean guy, he was a really nice guy, but he was just reading the book in my opinion, which said, Architecture, you need maths and you need science.

So I think totally you don't, you can do totally different ways and get into architecture. And what I like about your point as well, even if we zoom out a bag, do you believe you need to be an architect? So the skills that you had spoken about in terms of your cause, like. And this is just me thinking out loud, based upon anecdotal experience in recruitment.

There are loads of BIM technology companies, prop tech companies, which we use people with this skill sets. I know modular factories at the moment, which are I'm building up Architecture team. You know, and, and, and they're serious business, and they're not typically looking for an architect. They're looking for someone with your skill set, and I know money is not everything, but I think.

Does it just be to do the traditional course, a university in architecture doesn't mean you're going to be on more money in fact

Michael McGuire15:39

the opposite. Yes. So if I, I don't want to mention names, but, um, when you start to look at the contractors and I have past students know that well, The salad he would scare you, eh, is enormous amounts.

Stephen Drew15:53

Oh, I know I've worked with the cost stains and all them are the world. Trust me. If, if you do well in that case, it might be not glamorous as first. When you thinking about infrastructure motorways, I think it's really interesting, but maybe that's not typically what you think at the start, but the salaries, the reward.

The opportunity is these main contractors really look at, look after you. I mean, an architectural practice, you don't get given car allowance. Right. You know,

Michael McGuire16:19

so that's true. That's, that's true. Um, yeah, some of the, some of my, so those, so I work very closely and with quite a lot accompany. So in Glasgow, um, actually the, probably my biggest supporter is in Diane Rami, choose the BIM Manager that KP.

In Glasgow. And the KP design was actually founded by Charles Rennie Mackintosh. It's a very traditional, but very forward-thinking and innovative architectural practice. Um, but the Dianne was probably one of the first people who recognize the talent of the students. And what Heights can I recommend?

Let's have a look at oven, an exhibition evening and things. Um, and what we found was, um, it give Diane an N and other companies and then to come and actually see the talent and approached them before they even finished that course and say, do you want to come maybe work for us park team until the summer when you finish a course and then rate.

So it lets it lets them see the kind of talent and scale. But so KP is an architectural practice. Holmes Mellor as an architectural practice in Glasgow does the same. And, but then you have multiplex and baker. Baker hex themselves have something like 15 of my past students working for them in that office and Euro central.

Um, I mean, one of the things I'm learning from that's what we're doing here this weekend, this is what old skills. Um, and, uh, I'm happy to talk about what those skills as we are and what we're doing that, but , and , or desk are sponsoring the competition this year because they realize how influential the competition can be in curriculum.

And when it started, when we launched the digital construction competition, as part of what all scales and beaker hecks took four of the top 10 in the UK, we had the national fatal. So we have economic competition up to a national fatal, but in the national fame, there was the 10 top digital construction students.

Any UK, somewhat Architectural technology is somewhat structural MEP design, and so on. And baker hex took the top. Um, they took one into the structural team, went into the building services team, one entered their architectural team and one end to the team as well. So it was a BEM architectural, structural and MEP.

And you'll like this out. There's a contractor for you. They've got all of those different services and the one company. So if you're lucky enough to get in with a contract. And you work in the architectural team. You'll also get to see what the structural team, the building services team and the team at all doing as well.

Stephen Drew18:58

Wow. Well, there you go. And let me just say, baker Hicks knows what's up, right? They know to keep the recruitment costs down, keep up with the universities, keep an eye on the tail end. And I find it very, very interesting. One of the things I always say that some people, and this is a little bit me, perhaps in theory, they create and more importantly to get involved now.

How do you create opportunities for yourself in life? It's actually getting involved in whether it's coding or rabbits or going to grasshopper groups and all these going to these opportunities and these events, you, you, in the end, you don't apply for the interviews. People ask for you to come in and that's generally what happens forever in your career.

But actually it's really interesting. You can speak to. That process up by getting involved in stuff. So that's probably a nice segue then to talk about. Well we'll scale. This UK is a now item fully know what it is, and I'd love to know, and I can see that you're wearing the hi.

Michael McGuire20:04

Yeah, I still have it. So we over here behind me as well.

There's the other shirt? That's the back of the shirt. That's the motto is sharp. That one sitting over was, I mean, I'm in the hotel tonight, so it's, that's the whole, the whole crux of it right now is, um, 2018. I was invited to help launch the digital construction competition within what all skills, UK, world skills internationally have something like 70 competitions.

Um, so think the Olympics, I was not a fast runner at school and I could not throw things very far. So the Joplin and the ShotPut, so, and the trunk will jump. I was shocking. Yeah. But did you know, there was a thing where you can compete? So I, I did an apprenticeship with, I was a fabricator welder, and that are welding competitions.

So let's get a finger in the fastest to run a hundred meters. Who's the best weld that in the UK who's the best, but at clear tailor plaster all the trades carpentry landscape, but we also things like, um, hair dressing, beauty therapy. Mechanical engineering CAD and no digital construction. So construction, construction.

I know. Okay. So it encompasses any student in the whole or the what old or any digital construction or design course. So that includes architecture. That includes, um, Architectural techniques. Structural MEP, building services, civil engineering. Um, so what we do have, um, it's something I will share with you in your you're more than welcome to share with people that can log into your channel is we have an entire, uh, video channel.

If you like taking you through every single step that would even be in the competition. So we have, um, coming up, we will have a competition and on the 20th of. Um, the deadline for registering actually is going to be today. And I all, we've all been sharing it and the deadline is going to be the day. So it may be looking at the next one, blacks, wherever it runs every year.

Yup. So it runs every year and it's open to in England it's level sex or below. So that's pretty much your ticket. If England Wales or Northern Ireland, the level sex in Scotland, the equivalent level is level name, but it's exactly the same. Um, uh, can I compete level for like, um, but pretty much we will have something called our passive competition on the 20th of April for every single student that's registered and we've got approximately about a hundred registered.

Half an hour roundabout, half of the more progress to the next round. Um, and that's, it's pretty much like you're using revert, but you're also opening up execution. It's automated to ask your question. What's the project number you read the back. You take that in the answer box and you hit submit and Asher.

Another question it'll show you things like work sets is this works, it named as per project requirements. You find that in the BIP and equal where, um, you may be a couple of rooms in walls and your fame, what's the volume of that. And you think, but in that sense, so the next step then is, um, the top 50 or 60 students from all over the.

I'd invited to something cold that national qualifier and then the national qualifier, it's a one day competition. So they would go to the post center, the local college or university, and we all do it exactly the same time. So the plan is that for June. Uh, so some students will come up and new Coley's Linac shot, Edinburgh, Napier, university, Highlands, and islands, and soar, and others will go to Sheffield column Liverpool.

Join me. Um, Birmingham city, university metal sex and saw, and we've also got, um, Belfast mat and old started university in Northern Ireland. We have an identity the, this year from wheels, but this is going to be off task for next year. We're going to push that.

Stephen Drew24:10

And now my Welsh comrades where we do it

Michael McGuire24:13

yet, not yet next year.

Um, but yeah, so we have, everybody does exactly the same competition at the same thing. It takes approximately five and a half to six hours. What we're going to do is we're going to link all the horse centers by zoom. So I will be there forever and zoom, but everybody will be face-to-face and their own horse center, and everybody will set the same competition.

The top eight from lose 50 or 60, get invited to the national final. Now that's going to be mid November and then it place to be confirmed location to be confirmed. We're not sure yet where it's going. But in that the top eight people who have scored the highest scores, then from the national qualifier all over the UK, get invited to that.

And then they compete for two days. So two solid days, you're clear instructional models, Architectural models are working from. They're using uni class 2015, that exporting Colby, der their work in the Autodesk construction cloud. The whole team they're using novice works to do class detection soar. And so, yeah, so a proper and stage two Ben project, the scale of which is surprising, the larger actually, when you see how much work they actually get through now, what all skills, your key have a criteria it's levels.

Or below. So we feigned that lick Sheffield talent and our sales. We put some foster years and second years into that. Some universities will put third years and fourth years in, um, depending on the level of revenue and when they teach whatever, if that makes sense. So most students are pretty on a par, I would say they are play even, um, it's quite stressful.

It's quite a big, complex project than it really does. But then it does another step. So if you have then think of that, the national fatal you couldn't run and you couldn't throw stuff, but you were good at digital construction. You could be winning the gold medal, silver medal or a bronze medal to say, you've came for second.

I felt in the UK, if you score highly enough and your score in a high percentage of the top scores, you can also get a highly commended. But you're really looking at that to see, thank you, your CV for that, that you've competed in world skills. You have meddled or achieved something in world skills, even if you win your region and what old skills thinking up, it's there, the region, they're the competition.

And we always let see we had one and we also see I'm actually taught Welsh performance student and so on. Um, however, what else? Skills in a national go even further? So this October I'm taking one competitor to shine. And compete in Shanghai on behalf of team UK. Now, see that's the, all of the, all the, all your viewers, but if you Google it and you'll see world scales co-design, which was the last one in.

And if you Google it and see the world skills, design opening, those are two other long version. But if you'll find the little one and a half minutes, you'll see, it's just like the Olympics. It's absolutely vast. It's massive. And you'll see the people coming in in that callin flag and somebody there is competing on behalf of that, your construction team, your care as a tailor, there's a plumber, there's a welder, a beauty therapist.

Everybody is there. Right? So you're thinking. We have a level sex requirement in the UK. What do skills international have an age limit? And it's 25. If you are over 25, when we compete in October, you're too old age limit that we'd want to have in the UK. We just have an expedience. Students to compete.

Absolutely. But we don't, I was an old student. I wasn't that I was on my cheer student. Why couldn't I compete? You know? So we have that in the UK. You can go right up to gold, silver, bronze level, national fatal. But if you're young enough, I get to then train you for two years and take you to whatever the next ones who've got Shanghai.

The next one in two years will be like,

Stephen Drew28:17

Wow. Wow. There we go. I'm going to cry and noise probably for eight. Cause I thought that it's just like the karate kids of, um, the karate kid tournament's of, of fan CAD BIM and the digital industry. So, so cool. Do you know where your mind me off and this to me shows.

How valid, I think it is. So in terms of recruitment and what we would do in circa two presses in the 12 and 14, when rev rabbit was new, it was very hard to ascertain how good someone was using rabbit. So there was a piece of software called knowledge smart, which was here. It was, and that was, yeah, exactly.

And it was a little bit like when you talking about the fist that hypothetical. Uh, you could gate, you could T it was a little element of trust involved. Like you had to know the person was in front of the computer or so forth. That was an indicator. Oh, is someone good though? Rabbit? And now I don't really use those smart anymore.

Not because it's not a good project because more so now, because rabbit is used more, but especially at the starting point, it was very important to kind of get a metric of how. Good. That person was using the software. So for example, if someone got 90% of our 80%, typically they're more likely to get a rabbit job, especially during that time of employment or where I can see the world skills UK, it's fun.

Cause you know, you're going to get involved. You make friends and all this, right? So that's obviously part of that learning is the most important thing, as well as the, you know, the front along the way. I was just like, as a by-product then by participate in you're getting the certificate, which is actually going to help you get employed.

So it's not, it's a lot more productive than probably get in. Um, having a few grasses and playing world of Warcraft, like I used to do in college. I know we live and learn.

Michael McGuire30:23

I've got two things in that actually, when we just had a webinar recently on baker hex. So baker, senior BIM Manager, M Allister brown Allister was absolutely.

And at the foundation of the competition, he helped say in the very first competition and the market scheme, him and Gotti judged the first companies in 2018. Um, he said, and a interview and it's recorded and it's in a webinar. Um, I'll share that with you baker heck's he values the world skills competition over a day.

Ooh, make the national fatal. You have what they need as a company. They will take students with a degree and then you have to show them quite a bit. Yeah, you will not hit the ground running. Let's see if you compete and get to the national phenal at world skills, you can hit the ground running. You can be put on a life.

And they can trust you equal wit. So I'll share that link. Then I'll share that webinar with you. It's worth the watch. We have Laura, who is the head of Scotland for baker hex. We have Leah who is the information manager with Balfour Beatty, and then Allister. Um, we also have a past student as a bill and her lecturer from Sheffield.

Talem Jeff. And it's really good to hear it from a student's point of view, um, as well as another educator as well. It's been good to hear that, but yeah, it's an interesting. He will take, he would take, uh, the world skills competition, national finalists over a degree.

Stephen Drew31:55

Well, it's serious. And I can see why I worked in, but grew when I can see, you have to remember that actually at the end of the day, what is a job interview?

It's about meeting someone with the view. The hope that they can solve a business's needs. Yep. Now, hypothetically, if, let me rephrase that. If in the design competition someone's been doing that 12 hours on that crazy projects with this theoretical situation and are accomplished a lot, maybe not even perfect, or maybe one, whatever, that's kind of like a live demonstration of how someone's going to cope on the.

Which to me is a lot better of an indicator than the 40 minutes to an hour in an interview. So you've almost like had the pre-interview there because the person's gone. I want to meet that person. So

Michael McGuire32:50

it's a better indicator. Yeah. I almost love as a judge, he sold them for the two days. The other side of, as I have a degree, I have my honors degree in architectural technology.

But whereas the degree, the degree is just that, but you have taught. It's what's your rev. It bites. They tell you, this is my level of revenue percent. What should degree out first-class owners will that kind of tells you the same thing, right? Competing in the world skills competition. And if you made a lot of receive are highly commended, it's putting you up there at exactly the same.

It benchmarks you. Um, the other one actually can't really talk about with, without cannot bring in SN Israel is the Sally port. We have for our students and I know Sheffield and some of the other universities do it at the Autodesk certified use it exams. So that's definitely replaced what you were looking at before.

And we will look at invent art and fusion. And so when you look at those softwares and airstrip, Get the, by GS and union one really pushed link then rate, y'all see me. I'm on LinkedIn 10 posts a day. I think you're hustling. I know, I know. I like showing about what, what the students are doing. And the thing is, they're not even all my students, that the students who become mean from other universities because of the world skills competition.

So equally I'll share, but them as well. But I knew that all putting the budgies up, just know that all during the river or their certification exam. That's a really good benchmark as well. That one

Stephen Drew34:20

is, I agree with you. What's very interesting though, Michael, because I've seen the two, the two worlds and I, and I really think there's two worlds that I've been dipping into into architecture because it goes, I understand.

So it was a bit of a geek growing up and they might use, I love computers. I understand they missed a methodology to me. It makes total sense. And it was advocating there when I was in practice. But because of that, in terms of recruiting, I've been involved in the PropTech work. I work with main contractors and I've worked with digital consultancies and so forth.

Now in that world, Autodesk certification is super important. What's weird and bizarre in the architecture world is that sometimes a BIM Coordinator or BIM champion. It's just the BA the guy who knows Ben best in the team. And it's strange that. The qualifications you talk about, they are not often as utilized unless someone is a typical BIM Coordinator, a BIM Manager.

That's not to say that they're not useful is actually, I think what the person gets out of the course is the most useful thing anyways. But it's the architecture world, the architecture architecture world, which we alluded to earlier, you know, the quote unquote. It's a bit of a strange beast in that way.

And I know that because it's a world I worked in, I actually left it and I recruit in it now. So what I was bringing into this, because I think, and this is my personal opinion that basically Michael, I came from humble roots. I couldn't afford. To study architecture, the price. It is the universities because, and I'm, I'm amazed people.

Don't talk about this more, but it let's say there's five years to do the traditional architecture course, which you've got, and this is universities. So we're not even talking about college and, you know, getting through that place and not everyone has the luxury and the support. And when I was in college, there wasn't a lot of textual course, you know?

So w where I'm getting that now is that too. I did a. Based analysis that in the current 9,000 a year system and university, if you've got the five-years, that's 45,000 pounds, if you're living in a place where you, you, you don't have the luxury of an oven that your home next to which I didn't. Cause you know, you've got to go to London or you mentioned grad school, school of art to do architecture.

You basically racking up at 85 to 98, 5. And that's so much across the new architecture and what me and you just said is that if he was all about the. Uh, main contract is going to pay more or another Trump's going to pay bore or recruit bond, which I did Hayes moves. So there's, it's, it's, it's a strange thing.

And I'm not convinced that the traditional way of architecture, which doesn't reinforce stuff like rabbit doesn't reinforce the skills which employers are looking for. I think there's a disconnect and it's not sustainable. Um, that's my opinion. I, where I wasn't to say now this the architectural apprentice route, which I think makes a lot more sense.

That is closer to what you're talking about, Michael. And I think that's the way forward, because you can learn, you can earn, but what's your force. First of all of that traditional architecture rule, I talk about you also agree. There's a big change in the last few years.

Michael McGuire37:54

Yeah. I mean, I I've seen, um, I wouldn't mention we are, I have seen a couple of universities where they went for an interview on what basically slated and told you don't have any of the skills that we would need, um, because they are local to us.

Um, the groups of students themselves paid for is actually myself that went to the university. And that did that evening. So I've taught, choose the evenings and Thursday evenings I teach. I was that student, if you remember, I went two years to college myself in the evening and I, I teach on a Tuesday evening, the thirsty evening.

And for 12 weeks I went to one of the universities that was an architecture school. And I taught the students have used river and how it used 3d studio max, um, because they were going for an interview and being. You're really coming with folk. You're coming with your degree. You're coming with our certification, but you've not really got the skill set we need.

Um, the biggest thing I can attend to faint from it. I wasn't apprentice. I, when I left school, I was an apprentice. And for four days a week, I learned on the job and I earned the money. And one day a week I went to college and I got the certification that city to company. That's what they wanted at 60 to colleges.

Um, when I then went into education and I went to college and it was even in class and I was a mature student, uh, it was a great course and it was designed in a way that was very practical. I achieved that, but afterwards I then went to university, myself. The university I went to is Architectural technology.

Um, I'd say. I that well, because I was a mature learner and I had an experience, the younger students that had come straight through year one, two, and year three zoned, this struggled, the, they had never been shown anything. And the software side they'd never really showed a real project. And that's, I guess kind of drawback for me is what, when do you see your first real project?

If you then third year or fourth year at university. And Architectural technology is it's four years for your owners. So year 1, 2, 3, then your fourth year, you've never seen a