Out of Architecture
By Stephen Drew
September 20, 2022
0:00 / 01:01:10
Stephen Drew00:00

Hello everyone. My name is Stephen Drew and we're back with a special podcast all around the globe. And I am privileged because one of the guests in particular has turned off their con just to record this so that it sounds crystal clear for yourself. And I am joined by the fantastic and fabulous Jake and Aaron from out of Architecture, who I discovered online.

And I'm sure by the end of this, depending on how the podcast goes, oh, my screen's gone already, depending on how this all goes. Maybe we'll become fast friends. So Jake and Aaron I'm out of Architecture. How are you? You? Okay.

Jake Rudin00:37

doing really well. Stephen, thanks so much for having us.

Erin Pellegrino00:39

Doing really great already getting warm, but doing really great.

Stephen Drew00:42

you getting warm. I already, I already touched my cam camera, Jake. Isn't it. It's just, uh, I have to work on that after this, but we, we are gonna keep on going anyways. So, for Jake and Aaron, some people might not be aware of the awesome stuff that you do. And perhaps Jake, we can start with Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and then Aaron afterwards? That would be awesome. If you could tell us about yourself as well.

Jake Rudin01:09


So Aaron and I, um, are the co-founders of a project turned business turned now of crazy passion, um, called out of Architecture, which is a

Love him.

company that, um, supports individuals from design and Architecture backgrounds in finding jobs that we all thought we were gonna be getting when we left Architecture school and

Oh yeah.

finding roles that kind of fulfill and satisfy all of those creative and values.

And you know, whether it's compensation or appreciation or creativity, in my. Day job. I am a senior manager at Adidas and I work in, uh, digital

Oh, wow.

team doing computational design, 3d modeling, rendering for shoes, um, which are essentially little buildings that you stick feed in.

I mean, it's, it's really the same thing. And, uh, so, um, beyond that, um, we do, uh, a lot of different projects, Erin and I both have, uh, some other passions. And, um, so it's, uh, it's kind of a myriad of things, but that's a little bit about me.

Stephen Drew02:29

done. I mean, just before you jump in Aaron, I've got a confession for you guys, Jake, I'm gonna, I think, I think you're gonna log off, look at this. Cuz you should see, I new shoes. Look at these bad boys. They're terrible. you guys sort me out with some proper advice after this. Yeah, I It's embarrassing us. You. We were talking earlier about, you know, my is now with the RBA president, I rocked up with these horrible trainers. So maybe we'll pick that up later. we'll pick that up later. I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you a clap and maybe we can, you can help me design some new shoes, afters.

Aaron. Sorry. I hijacked your intro with my awful confession about my um, old, old converses.

Erin Pellegrino03:14

No. It's okay.

Stephen Drew03:15

I, uh,

about yourself.

Erin Pellegrino03:17

so actually, I guess the first thing you should know is that I'm

Stephen Drew03:19

also converses.

Oh yeah. But yours are nice. Like, mine are like dying of death. They've they've given up on life. You now?

Erin Pellegrino03:28

that's a great part about converses, right? Actually, I was just, I just went to go buy a new pair. Um, and I remember when they were like $25

Stephen Drew03:38


Erin Pellegrino03:38

I just dropped like 65 bucks on a, a pair of chucks. Um, but anyway, um, I've been buying converse my whole life. I guess the first thing you should know about me is I was in a punk band.

So, um, no, not at all. Um, so I mean, I was, but, uh, that's not, that's not, uh, not what I do now, unfortunately.


Stephen Drew03:57

do you do now, then?

Erin Pellegrino03:58

so aside from

Stephen Drew03:59

band's pretty cool. You know?

Erin Pellegrino04:01

is, it is, and, and we try to revive it, uh, every once in a while. Um, it's I have, I have music on the brain cuz I went to a rage against the machine concert last night. So I'm pretty, still pretty stoked.



Stephen Drew04:13

did. Yeah,

Erin Pellegrino04:14


Stephen Drew04:14

like rage.

Erin Pellegrino04:15

yeah, it was, it was fantastic. But um, no, so I mean I do, uh, you know, aside from the partnership with Jake and out of Architecture, , you know, as he kind of appropriately appropriately mentioned, started as a sort of passion project that became a business. And now,


as we grow has been able to become, uh, really the best version of both.

So we're pretty excited about that. Um, I am also still, uh, still an Architect trying to redefine what that, that term means. So I, I run my own firm called matter, um, where we do, uh, try to do, uh, as much as possible, uh, community engaged design, um, right now working on, um, a project with a couple of cities in New Jersey, uh, making homes for the unhoused, um, as well as a bunch of kind of bespoke custom stuff in places like Martha's vineyard, one hand kind of washes the other in that sense.

So I get to play around with all the things I love to do in Architecture school, which was build and, you know, mess around in 3d and get people excited about, uh, building homes.

Stephen Drew05:18

love it. Well, well, I'll give you a clap as well. And well then Aaron, you still do an Architecture in the traditional sense, but you've kind of got

Erin Pellegrino05:26

Not in the traditional sense.

Stephen Drew05:28

Oh, that's

doing to not be traditional.

I meant careers like, but are you more like then bat lady? Is it so you're doing a bit of like for, for the, um, the community in the day.

at night, you're doing out of Architecture and somehow to go and see rage against the machine and somehow managing to a bit of punk impressed.

Jake Rudin05:48

That's the beauty of getting to, you know, run a business as managing your own time. I mean, oh my gosh. Can we just talk about how inefficient it was to sit in, you know, a, a traditional firm and kind of have your, have your drawings done and feel like, well, you know, it's three 30, how long do I need to pretend you know, I'm actually working before it's safe to get up and go out to dinner before I actually come back to the firm to make sure that I don't need to do anything else before I leave again.

Um, know, or you're waiting for someone else to, to send you a detail so that you can actually put the model and, you know, it just takes hours and hours of waiting. I mean, that's, that's the beauty of having, you know, either a company or teams or running your own


Doing a myriad number of things.

I mean, it feels


have that flexibility and I'm sure Stephen that you feel that as well, but yeah. Then that's how you get to see rage against the machine.

Erin Pellegrino06:50

You know,

Stephen Drew06:51

I love, I love it. Do you reckon there's some poor soul out there listening to this podcast while rendering stuff at late at night? And we're talking about how we're not doing that,

Jake Rudin07:02


poor soul

many, I'm sure there are many, and I, I, you know, it's only, you're

being there.

it's not where you want to be. Right.


what we try to tell people is it's really important to understand that. know, we, think for a long time we thought we were the villains of the


like people from Architecture, you know, smart, talented, good architects who, you know, are just escaping to tech to make more money.

And I, I mean, I, I got that so many times in the transition working in, uh, in footwear, you know, well, you're never gonna come back, you know, you're just gonna become greedy. It's all about money. Um,


I, I never got to do the kind of innovative manufacturing, fabrication stuff that I get to do at Adidas in an Architecture firm.

I just never had


And, you know, even if the pay was level, um, which it certainly is not. And I think that's a huge part of feeling valued.

Stephen Drew08:04


Jake Rudin08:05

I would prefer the work that I'm doing, um, over the work that I was being given in Architecture.

Stephen Drew08:12


Jake Rudin08:12

don't think you should. You know, not doing a rendering right now, or sitting down and working through Revit detail or a family is gonna hate that work.

They might love that. And that's, that's incredible, but there's a lot of people who get trained to do other things and expect to be going into the profession, not rendering, not necessarily working on in Revit only. And, uh, and that's where I think we.

Stephen Drew08:40

Nice. Well, I've got a confession cuz I used to do Architecture and haven't done it for eight years. I've um, doing recruitment. I, um, I, I took, I went to a recruiter when I was part to Architect resistance that doing five years of the UK and I was like, I'm just not feeling it. I'm not too sure I should deal.

And they were like, yeah, you you're good at talking when you give this a go. And I was like, honestly, I'll just give it a go at this point. And uh, yeah, I've, I've done it ever since. So I, I, I do, I have left Architecture in the traditional sense as well. Um, but recruitment, mean, that's probably where like, You know, like the, all the evils on, on the spectrum, think sales and the state agents and recruiters are normally the thing that when you go to a dinner party, you write Jake and air and people are like, oh, you do recruitment.

Oh. And, um, and I first had to kind of get over that and I think, um, it's still been the best job I've ever done. Sometimes I work though crazy hours. I gotta say, I run my own business now. And I think I work more hours than I did when I was in Architecture in a weird way, I'm not clock anymore.

And that's the big difference. And, and that's probably my own personal, um, demons, which comes from Architecture, I think as well, where there's this attitude in Architecture education, especially in the UK, you tell me if the same, um, you know, in the states is where basically. You can work long hours into the night and all this crazy stuff.

And, and I think that sometimes I, I, I, I struggle with work life balance on a personal level, which is very interesting because when you can blame Architecture forward that, but then also now in this new situation, I've gotta stop doing it myself, but it's good news is guys, I've got better at it. I don't do so many long hours anymore.

My partner will throw a frame kind of my head. If I work too long hours into the evening, Steve, what are you doing all the time? Come on, you have to, you have to stop. You have to put down the computer, you know, just close everything. Right. So

Erin Pellegrino10:42

No, it's, it's true. You know, like we have the, I think we have the same issue here and I'm with you. I, I, you know, at this point, I guess I run two businesses and yeah, I work much harder than, than I did, or I would if I, I worked for somebody else, but you're right. There's this difference between what you really enjoy doing?

And I think clock watching is the best way to put it. Right. Um, you know, we had, uh, a bunch of like pieces of furniture we were working on last week and I love making things and it was a hundred degrees outside, but we were outside. I was outside all day on my birthday, like building a table. And I was just like, you know what, this is exactly how I would wanna spend that.

Um, maybe with 10 degrees cooler or 20 degrees cooler. But aside from that, I mean, having the freedom. to exercise, whatever your passions are kind of on your own terms, or as much as on your own terms as possible. To me, that's just that's everything right? And it's kind of, that's not necessarily money, but I think the most important currency is time.

And being able to decide how you spend your time, um, and design your life around that is, is, is really key.

Stephen Drew11:48

I agree. And I'll, I'll jump in. Um, and I'm loving this conversation cause it's close to home for me. Cause, um, again, going back to recruitment recruitment, you think sales is all about chasing the money and all this stuff. And, and what I learned is that it was quite an interesting, um, space because there's no real rules in it.

Right? And so, I mean, partly the Architectural social came out of, giving information, helping people out, you know, experimenting with career council and made a forum during the pandemic, all this cool stuff. And that's because there was nothing in this. So ironically, I I've had much more scope to do innovation.

I in the recruitment industry than if I was staying in an Architecture practice and I'm like you, I was like, I used to like volunteer to take the bins out in the office because I was like five minutes away from my desk would be better. And then I learned as well, and this is not good advice for anyone out there, but I had one or two key who would like to talk like me.

And then I learned quite quickly if I asked them about their family or their situation in the, in the kitchens, I would just procrastinate and not return to my desk for 20 minutes. Hey Richard, I was. Has your daughter doing at uni? Has, is it going well, economics? Ah, Steve NA I'll do that. And at one point they used to chase me, Jake and Aaron.

They used to chase me because there was free kitchens where I used to work and I would always be in the other kitchens ironically though, while I was that kind of part, uh, to architects, for assistant. And I was, they're like, ah, you know, Steve's a nice guy, but we're not too sure about that in terms of recruitment, I've done all of their recruitment.

And, and so, you know, it doesn't mean that you, you, you're not good in some skills. And I think that maybe that's a good segue to the next thing about Architecture, because I think it's an amazing qualification. I, I love studying Architecture and I apply a lot of it to business now, but you are right. I think like for me, it was really anti-climatic going into the Architecture industry because me personally. Some people, I know they had it right. They were loving it. They were doing all the law degree, you know, in, in the UK it's called part three to become qualified as an Architect. I'm sure there's you have like an AIA equivalent and, and, and all that. And, um, they were loving it. And for me, I just, was it just, I was not interested.

Right. But then I got like a really good at university. And I feeling at the time. I don't think I'm stupid, but I'm not too sure what I want to do. And I wasn't quite sure. And actually talking about being outside of Architecture. didn't know many people that did that. And if I said to anyone at the time, like, I'm not too sure if I want to continue becoming an Architect, it was like really why after all these years, are you, are you not?

What's going on? Are you something wrong with your brain? Are you a failure? Are you just not good enough? And so I felt like that, and I didn't feel like I had anyone to speak to at the time. And I'll throw out a question. This question to, to you both, is this a similar thing that you hearing now? And maybe that's why, again, you wanted to set up, um, out of Architecture.

So was it just not me? Am I not the only black sheep out there?

Jake Rudin14:51

definitely not just you. We have,


mean, at this point, uh, we're somewhere over the range of about 700 clients and several


conversations. It's

Oh, wow.

how much, um, the expectations. are shifting, I think


mean, and certainly, you know, a decade ago, I think it was a lot more taboo to go into a degree, um, and say, well, I'm gonna use this for some ulterior motive, right?



But now I think in just the almost five years that we've been, uh, working out of Architecture, we've had so many individuals come to us and say, Hey, I'm, I'm in the middle of school. And I'm well aware that I don't want to go into Architecture as it is traditionally practiced through a firm.

me about the alternatives what that highlights for me that we're getting away from this issue of, uh, what Aaron and I have termed kind of the noun crisis, which is you start Architecture school to become an Architect period. the Architectural career pathway is defined around that. Term, have nuances to that, whether it's Architectural uh, Assistant, know, you have an associate Architect, a project Architect, a principal Architect, a


all of these things are in essence one career trajectory.


when you step out of that narrative, you start to see that there are other pathways. I mean, there are spec writers were architects. There are also engineers who are architects. There are model builders. There are computational designers. There are marketers who came from


sales, people who came from Architecture.

There are so many pathways and we've started to encounter some of these people who have a law degree and an Architectural degree are in these very strange niche areas of engineering, and construction. what we try to do is to show people first. beyond just that tiny bubble of, I am an Architect.

Here are some, some other things, we've started to expand that more and more. And really what out of Architecture points to that there are architects in the world beyond AEC. There are retail designers, workplace designers, service designers, experiential designers, UX designers,


designers that can benefit from the Architectural And can use that to their advantage in an industry and a creative application that maybe just not buildings. that is such a powerful thing to have going through your education to understand that I have a way out because as with any other relationship, even if you're, let's say dating someone.

Stephen Drew18:03


Jake Rudin18:04

putting that person against all of the other opportunities, the possibilities that's how you know, is this the right person for me? Is this the right role for me? If you think that you have only one option, especially in a career, you're just, you know, you're gonna take whatever is put in front of you.

And we see architects do that with salary, with work, know, the of however many hours they're taking on


not thinking twice about it, even if it feels horrendous because they just think they have no alternative.

Stephen Drew18:37

Mmm. Yeah, not, um, an ideal situation. And I remember feeling that way as well of, um, not too sure what to do, there was just something in me that I didn't want to do the, the Architectural exam. Cause it was getting real then every, you know, it was like if I do the exam, that's really a com you know, commitment and almost felt it would be fraudulent to my passions to, to study the legalities of


when I didn't really intend to practice it.

But ironically, the way I look at doing my own business, a lot of that I see from my masters and part twos and that data driven approach, cuz we mentioned even just before we started the podcast is how I found. Out about out of Architecture is because I found a back link, which is the technical term for your link, your website link into my website. And, um, that's a skill I never learned before of running my own you know, and again, while I set up the Architecture in 2018 is weird how the, the world works because for years I was dabbling with WordPress and there was a few other things and learning a little bit of I mean, I have a friend that, um, is a technically, you know, an Architectural Assistant.

And as you guys mentioned earlier, who's now a UX and he's done that for a long period of time, but it's weird how the world works is in, for me playing around with websites. That's also been one of my huge because in recruitment, if you've ever seen world for wall street, it's not quite as bad as that, but it is a bit like that in recruitment.

And they, they were like, Hey, you over there, you, you are like that clever Architecture guy apparently. And, you know, websites, can you just. Build something. So I built something half and they're like, whoa.


And then it was that kind of thing of that, that skillset or that approach in Architecture in recruitment was really valuable.

And actually the other thing, sorry, I'm rambling on. So, and then one second, but looking at the process of recruitment, much like a BIM Manager or something looks at Architecture and that the process of it was extremely Getting into the science of something. And, and it was that approach that I picked up in my studies was super valuable in and other So, mean, I love, um, all that stuff and maybe a quick, thing to mention, cuz we talked about my website for going to your website and I found your website and I loved it. Cause you've got it right now. You've got a job board and you mentioned all these opportunities that maybe architects would be good for.

And I thought that was amazing because I can imagine when you're in Architecture, For you guys, you could be like, right. Maybe you could do this. Maybe you could do that, but it's very hard, isn't it? When you're still in the role to imagine anything other than what you're doing, because where do you begin?

And as you've quite rightly said, maybe there's a role, you mentioned rockstar and I loved Grantford auto, and I know that there's environmental designers there. So that's maybe one that I thought of a bit, but even then they don't necessarily say in these adverts, right. to an Architectural professional, it's kind of, you have to, would imagine, and to explain to the employer or show transferable skills. So I don't know. I mean, Aaron, cuz do you wanna jump on that as well? Is that right? Do you find that you have to guide people on the, how to apply to these roles so that the people see their transferable

Erin Pellegrino22:00

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot to unpack in, in what you're talking about. And part of it comes from, if we kind of, if we don't rebel against this really narrow understanding of what an Architect is and does, we're just not keeping up with, with progress, right. I mean, when we were all born half of the jobs that probably our colleagues who are not architects have didn't exist as titles, you know, I mean, I, I can't tell you that.

I know that for a fact, when I was born that, you know, a, a technical data scientist or an information Architect, I don't think those roles didn't exist yet. They maybe did in, in niche sort of government agencies. But so the reality is, is. Why do we not focus on this disconnect between all of the skills that you're getting through a degree of study happen to be called Architecture, but there's some data scientists out there also that have a background in English literature.

I'm sure. Right. so it's just because your degree program is titled this and maybe even your first few jobs out of school, this sort of immediate or all consuming association with no, I build buildings really sort of cuts you off at the knees because to get to your, like your direct question. So let's say you don't find someone at rockstar who knows an Architect or knows what an Architect does or was an Architect at some point.

That's an incredible opportunity to explain the way an Architect. Right. What you were trained to do, what were you trained to do? You were trained to mitigate uncertainty. You were trained to manage complex systems without having an intensely deep, you know, knowledge or expertise or skill set in that, uh, complex system.

You're trained to make something out of nothing. You're trained to manage uncertainty and, and, and risk around, you know, following a process you're trained to, um, manage yourself in your time in a series of, of really complex, um, scheduling processes and other people, right? So these are all incredibly useful skills that no one knows an Architect necessarily has.

Just like, I don't know what the skills of, uh, a data scientist actually are. Right. um, but if you can


separate yourself from that title or at least allow yourself to take some ownership and explain that to people, um, and maybe even to yourself and recognize that your skills are applicable in all these other places.

It, it ends up making, if we don't do that, it ends up making Architecture a really sort of narrow dismal world that only makes buildings.

Stephen Drew24:21

Mm-hmm said, Jake, do you wanna add anything to that?

Jake Rudin24:27

I think that was exceptionally well put,

think so.

agree that I, I agree. And I would only add that, you know, we talk a lot about the negatives of Architecture, but to Aaron's point, there is an incredible opportunity

in the Architectural profession. And we, for the longest time felt that. We were going to stay and fight and do something to change that.

And in a recent episode that you recorded, you, uh, had mentioned that, uh, you know, with, uh, along with the colleague, I forget her name, but she was a fantastic that there is power in separating yourself from the system and then turning around trying to support from the outside, I think, and giving some breathing room and time to focus on that is incredibly important.

And for anyone listening to this who might have their, you know, head buried in a, in a 3d model or rendering or feel lost, there is no shame in away from, you know, a particular to at Architecture from a different lens. I, I mean, that is, that is an incredible opportunity to broaden the profession, to redefine what Architecture means both to you to others.

Um, and I'm constantly shocked, uh, at the, the notes, the messages, the, the responses that Aaron and I get of people thanking us just for showing them that Architecture can be something else.


do often still feel a lot of guilt when we talk to, uh, firm leaders and owners and principles, because I think that they maintain this, um, your dues mentality, having to stay, having to suffer as being a part of the badge of honor of Architecture. And yet Erin and I also have Architecture firms now coming to us to ask for talent. As kind of almost recruiters in a sense, because they're interested in people who think differently, who

Where I.

to to suffer, who are interested in exploring a multitude of things at a young career stage. And that's amazing.

So to me, that's a huge win and a small change what seemed to be a very unified wall of the Architectural profess.

Stephen Drew27:04

Well said, I, um, I, cuz I think it's interesting that I think I, at the time, know, and I'm lucky cuz my dad was a really good support and my mom, but it's interesting because my dad, he was an engineer and between us. Right. And he still is an engineer, but he was an engineer in a particular place and he hated the job.

Right. He hated it. He hated it. And he was working in the factory at the time and you could just smoke there. So he was at this machine smoking all day and any first chance he got, he, he tried, he switched to a role where he was like, A relationship builder in, in So when I was like, dad, I don't want to be an Architect.

Had a lot of, ironically my friends in Architecture were more like, you're crazy, Steve, what you gonna do? Just put up with a friend of a two year you'll change your mind. It was my dad of all people. It was like, yeah. Okay. understand. Just do what you want. because, you know, it was, it was quite scary at the time. so I do think having that support is, is important. And I think it's really important we have people like yourself taking the taboo out of it. So I'm gonna give you a quick clap that need more that, and it, and what I was gonna add is. Okay. So in terms of, uh, I'm gonna bring it to myself as well, because I can speak from experience because of what I've done.

So while I were Architectural recruitment, I think I've made a much more of a positive impact on the Architectural industry than if I was continuing down that trajectory as a part to Architectural Assistant. And, and, and that's where I think it's really going against the state as quo cuz and look, I know some, I I've got a friend that actually struggled during university, whereas I was okay.

I was all right. I have a friend that struggled and now he's like an associate building buildings, which are amazing that I can never have done. And I've left the. I'm I didn't do, um, my part for Architecture, but where I'm going is that think that you can still in Architecture or even set up your own business and do all this stuff, which is outside maybe the status quo, but you can still help in the built environment.

So for example, you, guys must be doing this and I surely you get your kicks off as well, because that's where we came from. Right. That's our origins and it is nice to be adding something back. And I know people have gone into maybe Architecture, journalism, or another merging space. I see. And you mentioned tech before also, it's quite a lot of tech in the BIM space or the modular space and there's developers in modular.

And you've got parametric designers and I know one Architectural Assistant who who's got a job who got a job a while ago at Google. I don't even know what he's doing at the moment. I met up for him. And he was like, yeah, yeah, Because, you know, I remember recruitment. They'd be like, yeah, if you got a job for around 90,000, I'll look at it.

And I was like, I haven't got any jobs in Architecture at that level. so he's probably, you know, off there with Google making the next, but he was doing like AR VR and Metaverse stuff before. It was probably called Metaverse point is I'm trying to get to, you can add a lot of value indirectly in Architecture. So while out of Architecture, I'd love to hear stories. Do you know any kind of cool stuff that, like you mentioned Architecture practices asking for people's talents coming in, have you seen architects that have gone off and maybe set up their own businesses and doing cool stuff in the, the Architecture industry?

Erin Pellegrino30:37

I mean, we, we have the privilege of talking to people who go off and do just absolutely amazingly cool things. And sometimes we get to help them do that. Or sometimes they just come to us and say, you know, like, Hey, I really resonate with what you're trying to do. Here's my story. Right. So it's amazing that we, we get that.

I think it, it comes back to this question of how do you wanna have agency in the world? One of our clients is now, you know, designing bases for SpaceX, right? So places to launch rockets from, you know, like that's, that's amazing. We've had clients go off and be yacht designers. We've had clients who've wanted to focus on, um, sustainability, but from, from a corporate perspective.

So going in and being a strategist, um, or a consultant who helps companies with strategy or an in-house, um, In-house sustainability consultant for, for companies that, you know, obviously hopefully care about the, the built environment, right? And again, it comes back to like, what are your personal values and how do they align with the agency you wanna have in the world?

And I think the fact that it can turn back on itself and we can help, you know, help modernize or help bring the pro create more equity in the profession and, and expand the bounds of it. So that these things aren't so architecturally adjacent, but rather, um, there's just sort of powers of 10 as to the agency that you can have that to me is, is success.

I, I got an email the other day from a former student of mine who did her thesis on, um, women's health access in rural Turkey. And she sent me a photo from her white coat ceremony because. Did a ton of research for that did a lot of boots on the ground, working with people, working with healthcare providers and decided to go become a doctor so that she could merge her thinking both from an Architectural access built environment standpoint.

And now from, you know, a med med school standpoint. And to me, that's like one of the best examples of that to say that, you know what, yeah, I can, I can wear the hat of an Architect. Cool. But I'm also gonna wear this other hat because when I put both of them on, you know, synapses fire, and you can, that's the type of agency she wants to have in the world.

And to me, that that's, that's amazing. And if more people did that, um, and as it aligned with their passions, we would just, there's no telling where we would end up as just, even as a society.

Stephen Drew32:50

Nice. I, um, I was thinking while we talk and that's really useful to know, and, and I'm glad, I'm glad you're hearing that. So it's good that out of Architecture exists now, uh, before that there was nothing there. So I appreciate you set this up now. I dabble and still do a little bit, not as much, um, as I'd like, because I'm busy doing recruitment, busy setting up my business and know, it can, it can be a lot, but last year I did in particular, a lot of career coaching I found it deeply rewarding. And incredibly intensive though. so first of all, round of applause for doing it now, and, and, um, and I do want to say as well, what I've learned as well, and I'm gonna quickly edit is that sometimes I think, especially from Architecture culture, we can do a lot of work for free. And, you know, I always challenge people on the perception of free. uh, and I know that, you know, while I give away some information that I can free, that tends to be like a podcast like this, because you can share value on to a bigger. Bigger network, I guess, or an audience. The reality is one-on-one coaching is very specific to different people you do that as well.

So let's not give away any juicy nuggets and it's not like you got juicy next to give because everyone's on a one-on-one basis, but maybe it would be cool for, for me to understand how that process begins. So if someone's like itching to get in touch with you, or how does it typically start?

Jake Rudin34:25

so Stephen, we have, we have juicy nuggets. I mean, if, if you want juicy

Stephen Drew34:30


Jake Rudin34:31

we will provide, I am waiting for you to find a sound on

Stephen Drew34:34

if I got

For juicy nuggets.

I've got I've. I've got the, oh my I've lost my screen again. So I got the Architecture stressing me out one. that's, that's my, that one, that one, which is probably me on that. So where's the oh, hang on juice.

Jake Rudin34:50

about it. Think about it while I answer your question and then you can, you can punch it at the end. Um,

I'm thinking.

I would say, I would say as we go through, um, the process of meeting a client, I mean, first of all, you're right. It's, you know, we don't give away work

Stephen Drew35:06


Jake Rudin35:07

also understand that a lot of this information is already available.

And a lot of what we're telling clients is more career therapy than necessarily us saying. know, I mean, and lot of the information we've already divulged is here are all the doors that are

an Architectural. Or architecturally educated individual. Um, but resembles what we do in our


is we sit down with someone we ask about their story.

You, for example, are telling us, look, you know, at the time I left, this is how I felt. I understood that, you know, what I really appreciated about work was the personal connections. I would do I could to get away from my desk. I really just wanted to be people on a different level. And we take that and we point to specific opportunities.

Now, sometimes we get people who are in crisis and there's a little more urgency


how do I handle a situation that's going on at work. Um, sometimes we're helping people to devise a plan to step away, or they want to go start their own practice. we're, um, talking to them about how they might continue work for their firm under the guise of


Right. And how you might make that first step out. Sometimes we're talking to them about how. Price that, or maybe they're immediately already in negotiations for a new role. They already understood the system. They've got a good portfolio. They took a jump out and then they just have no idea what their value is. we're across the spectrum there. but I would take this opportunity to plug, um, that one-on-one coaching. I mean, for us, our time is really


we charge a $500 base fee to work with clients. So we have that onboarding fee and that's pretty to a lot of architects. I mean, certainly, um, Architecture pay is, I think in the UK is almost worse than it is in


but, um, in the us, it is certainly not necessarily always a comfortable if, if livable wage.

Um, and so we've been trying to problem solve that as how do we make our services accessible? To the, the broadest, uh, range of people who need that support. And for a long time, we have also continued to offer discounted, rates for people who are unemployed or students or payments or could think of. And it kind of sparked this idea many years ago that there's a better, more efficient way to disseminate information than just a one to one kind of podcast. Um, you know, and, and some of those things I think are A lot of career coaches have like a master class online or series of tutorials or things like that.

And certainly we've, you know, we've thought through possibilities, but what really, it came down to is there are so many shared experiences and there are so many relatable experiences that we could share. And we decided to do that through the form of a book that we have coming out at the, the end of, uh,

Stephen Drew38:25


Jake Rudin38:25

summer here.

I think actually, probably just the very end of October. So it's called out of Architecture, um, the value of architects beyond

Stephen Drew38:32

wow. This is actually a book that is up my street. And now, so if I'll I'll, I'll be very tempted to order whereas an international person, are we gonna get you? Are you gonna be, um,