good morning. Good afternoon. Wherever you are. You are listening to the Architecture Social podcast. Now I am in my new little office. Okay. So I might be disturbing the neighbors. We'll see how the sound goes. Well, I haven't got my battle here, so I can't talk touch here, but that's a little preview who I'm with.
So I am here on the podcast with the weather. Not only fantastic. Well, Ridgeway who I'm sure you've all seen. On video, but now in order, you only, you get a very special conversation. So rather than us talking together about videos, we see and doing a terrible Christmas special, what you get here is you get to learn a little bit about behind the scenes, turn my phone off.
Well, that's not good. There's that little bit of behind the scenes on me and well, and how we met. I don't what, what Will's involvement is in architecture and how he got pulled into the world. So we're Ridgeway. Welcome to the podcast. How
are you? I'm very good. Thank you. Thank you for having me on this podcast.
Feel very special and honored.
Ooh. Hey, I've got my soundboard
to make the sound boards that
yeah. Do you know what? Well, it just sounds a bit more with that microphone slightly out there, you know, so me and you have mastered the arts of each streams, but we can't do a prerecorded audio podcast. It's too much.
Is it to now? That's perfect. So, well, tell us all a little bit about yourself. Who are you?
So obviously I'm well, uh, I am an architectural recruitment consultant at McDonald and company. So I focus in the wonderful world of architecture, um, at all levels. And I've been doing this for about, uh, two and a half years now.
So I'm very well in with the architecture. See what
Lisa you in any way with the cool kids. Yeah.
I'm getting the, you know, I'm gradually, um, you know, losing the suit and tie, you know, coming a bit.
That is true because when you started, so when we started with me, so the crazy ways we used to work together, um, still speak a lot.
Um, so when we'll join, he would wear the suit and the tie when you look great. So, and I think it's very important for anyone wearing a suit and tie. We're not having to go out tall, but now I've got, we got we'll down to wearing a seal and a nice shirt. Without the tie. And I think that's a nice level for architecture.
Do you feel a bit more comfortable now? They don't. Yeah,
I do. You know, it's um, yeah, I do. It's I think when this first started, the reason why I wore suit and tie was because that's what I fought I should be wearing, you know, it wants to look the smartest possible, but then you realize that, you know, it's, you don't have to wear it all the time and as much more relaxing as.
And I'm done, you know, relaxed.
Yeah. I understand that. So recruitment is a lot more than just about a what though. All right. So let's talk about your journey. So you actually, you went to university, which university did you go through?
Well, I went to the university of Birmingham in,
so, and you could probably never predict it right.
That you would have gone into architecture recruitment. So it's kind of a happy accident and we'll talk to what it's like to recruit in the architectural world. But so you, what did you study for everyone? So,
and the, I did, um, I did a bachelor's in sports science, and then I got to the end of the bachelor's and I was thinking, right, what do I do now?
And I thought, I don't know, let's do a master's in sports science. So then did a master's in sports science and. Obviously that led to here, although that's the very simplest route. How much do you want me to go
in now is just to go over a bit, but you know, you, he did the classic thing of you're a graduate, you know, you've suddenly you've got your degree and then you've got to go out into the big wide world and get a job.
Now, job seeking is stressful. Right. And so while we'll talk a little bit about our interview and lucky were hired, so he went, wow. But you know, like me as well, when I was looking for jobs in the past, I didn't get the first offer. Right. I'm not Superman. And I'm, how was your experience? Did you go for a few interviews and you, you had a few close calls, you had a few nos and then you led to this one.
How was your search in particular? Yeah,
so I'll so basically when I got out uni. First of all, I don't know where I'm going to go. Uh, and I was thinking what jobs are there for me because, and I was obviously thinking, right, let's use my degree because I've just spent the last four years getting the bachelor's and the master's.
And so I was having a look and then the things that I wanted to do, I needed to do further courses, you know, on which obviously meant more time and more money and was studying. How do we spend four years? Uh, I know this is nothing compared to what an architect goes through.
Know, I did five years, but I didn't do my part free. And look, everyone goes their own way in like fully, it's just a lot of time studying. So it's all.
So, um, I was like, well, I don't have the time and money to do any further studying. What can I do with why have, and then I think I got approached by a recruiter, um, who was asking me, would I be interested?
And the idea of it first, it seemed a bit weird to me because I was thinking I can't even find myself a job, but how I meant to go do a job where I've got to find people with job in the first. Um, but then it cuts to me that it might be really cool move to do, because I think the career progression and recruitment is quite a lot.
So that's when I started having a look into recruitment and I think I applied, I applied to quite a few places. I had a few interviews. I went to one interview, lasted three hours long and they said, no. Uh, and then I know everyone's time. Oh, I know I met like three different people. And, um, but then also I had a seat at the McDonald's and company interview and we had a group interview, uh, which was, I actually came to the interview, not knowing it was a group interview.
Uh, I thought it was going to be one-to-one. So I was a little bit surprised it was a group interview, but in the end of the day, did he
ever, did he interview, oh my gosh, that must've been a nightmare. So for anyone listening to this so we can tag, so I wouldn't necessarily do this per se in architecture, but in recruitment, let's just say.
You're looking for people to abilities and it's not necessarily like you have to have a part, one degree to become a pot when Architectural Assistant recruitment's very different. It's you looking forward with someone's role, skill sets and ability. Therefore, the CV is kind of a wide open. And so we did them and the McDonald's company is a great, I've had a great time there, um, at the time.
But the recruitment process was like, everyone kind of came in. Okay. So let me actually, let's go into this. Cause I said two perspectives it this way. Right. I really appreciate it. Everyone come in. So, but that disclaimer right before anyone has it added before I say anything else really preach it.
Everyone coming. Okay. The problem is with these groups, not everyone. See you into the robe and. It kind of goes on for an hour and a half or two hours of free hours. Okay. And it's a bit like X factor, you know what I'm saying? So sometimes you have some good batches. Okay. Sometimes you haven't got the best batches.
And then I imagine from your side of the car, your side of the table, there's this element with groups, dynamics, where you can influence it a bit, but you can't really control it at bat. And then you might have someone overbearing in the group, or you might have someone in the group exercise, you do that's in, you're like, oh no.
So how was it? Well, was
it a mixed bag? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I'm not a fan of group interviews in the first place. Cause you almost, it's like a false friendliness that everyone has to be.
Hey, just come on in. No problem. We're just looking at you and analyzing
everything with the people that you're interviewing with as well.
Like. What together and be really super helpful and everything. And it just didn't seem very genuine to me. But, um, the activities we did were actually were actually quite fun. I'll be honest. I kind of, I kind of through that was actually doing an interview and then, but you do have, uh, you know, a lot of them are like just team building, uh, that kind of sort of activities, which nothing relates to the job itself.
And it was only really at the end where we had an activity that was related to the job where we had to like pitch our own recruitment business. I think it was, that's what we had to do. And so we have to get into groups and pitch that. And, um, I influenced it in my behavior in my favor because I picked to do recruitment.
I said, we should do a recruitment industry and the sports sector, which sort of say, I already would know about
information. So I influenced everyone to do it that way and it will see paid off, I guess. Um, but yeah, you do. There was a few people that I was thinking, um, PR yeah, Sorry.
No, no, I it's really interesting.
So what's interesting in my brain is that I do not remember the sports business, but the bit I do remember is that we managed to have some form of engagement. I think I asked a tricky question without being too, uh, I, I try to ask a tricky question, but give someone scope to answer. And I remember specifically that you came back to me and you, you respectfully disagree the backed up what you said, which was important because then you stood out.
Okay. And so for anyone in the audience here that goes into a group interview, you want to be memorable because at the end of that, I literally had eight ruins, a thesis about ticks and crosses and maybes. And, um, I remember originally I put a maybe, but I was really inclined to interview you. Um, and some.
We were all happy you were there, but let's put it this way. Everyone had their different opinion in the group who to hire. So anyone listening, if you're in a group interview, you've got to make an effort to stand out. Otherwise you could be totally forgotten, but, okay. So you went through that, you did the, the friendly group interview of extreme analysis that says, okay, you got your maybe, and then the green tick for me.
And then you came back, how was that experience? So, and I look at that was pre pandemic, different time. We've got less battle scars that we got. You've learned a lot since then. Right. But trans Paul back to when you were a babe in the woods. Yeah. Little did you know what you were going into? So you tell everyone where it was like, so you must have worked to the end of it.
You're like, oh, this Stephen Drew, whatever is inviting you back to the architecture team. Did you do any preparation for the interview?
Absolutely. I did preparation for the first interview as well, even though, again, like I said, I wasn't aware it was a group interview, but you've got to do preparation.
Like I try to, um, I tried to learn parts of, you know, what McDonald's a company did or does. Uh, and, and basically, and then also what recruitment does as works. I think team recruitment, it's not something that most people spend their lives working towards to go into a career. It's almost something that recruitment finds them, if that makes sense.
And it's important for people to know about that role. Uh, whereas for example, an architecture. That's still very important. You need to know that role, but you'll see you're being geared towards that. So that's probably the difference between that and recruit. And, um, so with me, I had to learn exactly what recruitment is, what it entails, because it's not always obvious.
And a lot of things are true. A lot of things that I know now, when I look at, for example, CVS and things like that seem obvious to me, but that's because I've been learning the industry. I know what to expect. I've seen so many CVS, but for me, yeah. So I had to learn about the role and things like that. I wasn't quite sure.
I don't know if I was, I don't know if I had any preparation necessary on the architecture side, but I think that's, cause I wasn't sure exactly which team I was interviewed by. I can't remember. I just remember learning about the company, you know, and just making sure that I didn't turn up and was completely clueless because you don't want to look like that.
You want to just come across really friendly and, um, knowledgeable, well, at least competent to have done the prep work before.
Yeah, I think that's really what was said. And you definitely came across well read. I'm not going to embarrass you with any stories. I'm not going to talk particularly about, um, the particular anatomy that you did or for your dissertations, how you, how you managed to get heat readings.
But it was, I was, the thing is, is I was more interested in your ability and, and I felt that you were, um, so it was a gambler with graduate roles because, um, I think you see someone is see something in someone, and then you've got to just jump in and give them the job. So I saw something and I was very keen to build up the architecture team.
And this was 2018. Um, Yeah. And I remember I had, I had got, I had a massive eye infection. So you remember you saw me this awful eye infection anyway. So you met the MD who is definitely a tour de force and fantastic individual, but you know where the MD, you always get that MD finger. Yeah. And that's a bit low.
It was one thing in me who was an associate director, but when you meet in the management director, it's, um, it's, uh, it's for it's full on, it can be a bit nerve wracking, but you did well, but so you really was a baptism of fire. Okay. And so I think what we did, which was really unconventional, but I kind of think it makes sense to recruitment is that we said we would give you a trial, which was paid.
And I think that's a really important distinction. And for anyone listening here, I think that's a really good way to do it. If you're going to do a trial, you should got to pay someone. You can't do unpaid internship. We would never accompanied the zoo that, but I remember. Uh, let's see, you're, you're, you're racking your brain cause it's a two and a half years ago, but you, you rocked up for, I think two to three days.
It wasn't there and it recruitment's pretty full on, um, now the difficulty that any re uh, good recruitment consultant has in architecture, and that's probably a really important distinction. So for anyone that's listening, if Wells bums this, then, you know, Eastern really well, but if someone in architecture is this, then where this conversation is going to be really useful is in two fronts.
Is that a good recruitment consultant has to really in Architecture acid really understand Architecture. And it's just no way you can, you can teach that overnight. Okay. Because it was hard for me who was a part two to then go into architecture and recruitment. I remember coming home and feeling like information overload, my brain can't take.
And the more, and now I think your industry now. Because you do that for two and a half years, it's much stronger. What was it like jumping into recruitment? So less about the recruitment, but more about learning the ropes and architecture. That was, um, was that like playing a video game on HOD mode? Oh,
it was, um, it was actually difficult.
I think it's cause I had to learn both recruitment and Architecture the same time. Cause they're both not something you pick up straight away. I think when I did the trial week, it was just before Christmas. And um, basically I didn't really focus much on architecture. You gave me sort of like a rough understanding, but it didn't really sink in.
And then obviously you gave me some reading materials to read Christmas too. When I said that when I started in January, I was, you know, ideally in a better position. But again, I think it took me about it took me a long time to really understand architecture because it's so complex. A lot of it as well for me.
I had to learn to have a taste in architecture as well. Yeah, I think, um, for me, but before doing this, it's gonna sound really, um, uh, naive, but for me, a building was a building. Uh, it didn't matter how it ended like, um, but then doing this, when you see people's portfolios people's work, uh, company's projects, it helped me get a better idea and develop a taste in certain buildings.
And then, so I had to learn all of that. I had to learn all the part, the architecture roles as well. I think it took me forever to understand the difference between Reverend BIM, for example, that sounds really bad, but
I'm just saying no, it's not easy. It's straight. I mean, a lot of people still lump it together.
Most people think that it means rabbit like rabbit is, but, well, yeah, it's, it's full on, isn't it? Well, Um, can I just, before you finish that, I want to expand on what you say. Cause you're you're right. Architecture taste is so difficult because as well as that in CBS, there's so many things that go on compared to a traditional CV.
So if you're an accountant, that word document and PDF file is all right. Yeah. But in architecture, the graphic design is important. The experience is important. The RIBA stages are important. The file size is important. The projects quality is important. The sectors are important and it's such an uphill battle.
So I remember when you started a few times, that's a good CV. And I was say, no, one's a bad, I'm a, got to be really careful what I say here, because they want to get it right. And I want to be a true everyone everywhere. I can get a job in architecture. It's going to be hard, harder for some people and not everyone can overcome it, but certain people are not right for certain companies.
Okay. Let's be important here. Recruiters, not the hand of the gods. Say matchmakers, you get a role requirement and then you find the person and a good recruiter can influence that they can help the client, see the people that they might not afford. Generally, there's only so much leeway. You have that. And then fortunately in life, and it's a tough world.
Not everyone gets selected for it. But, well, do you remember when you started? You're like, I think this person's perfect. And like, they're like, no, no. Why someone was out like at first, is that difficult? Yeah,
it was really frustrating. Cause like, to me, I was thinking finally I found it. I found someone, I found someone that does architecture
but for me, it's at me, even though it seems really simple to me now it is like matching up the different sectors at different project typologies to what the studio is looking for. You know, just because you've done a hotel scheme doesn't automatically mean you can do a residential scheme for example, um, or they'd be relevant for that particular project.
I mean, most cases, you know, there are transferable skills. Um, but it was just difficult for me to get my head around that. And I look back on it now and thinking how's I find it so difficult than, but it is the way it is. And, um, But, um, that's one of the things that you do like about working in recruiting in the architecture field is the CVS the portfolios, because I think if I was doing any other recruitment, if I may be for a while, I don't know, but any other particular industry where the CVS are a lot more, a lot more detailed, a lot, th the way they're structured is a little different than not very designy.
I think it would grab my attention as much, whereas an architecture, I get to look at these lovely designs that everyone's done. And because I'm quite a visual person, rather than I'm a reader, I will read it, of course, but something that grabs my attention visually is going to keep my attention. So, yeah, I guess what I quite like about Architecture and that's one of the things that I initially grabbed me at the beginning.
And eventually once, once I figured out exactly what I needed to do for every single role, everything went smoothly. It got to a point where suddenly. And I never really looked back since, uh, I dunno how it clicked. It just did one day.
It just does. It's a bit like riding a bike. Um, obviously you had me there, you know, and I, and, and I was, oh, that sounds wrong.
It sounds like, of course you survived because of me. No, the opposite. Recruitment's difficult. And so obviously in those are mandatory, you can try your best. And this is a two way thing. It's a two way, tango two, it takes two to tango. So it's like, you need ideally good management. And that's difficult because recruitment's quite qualitatively reacted to jobs who react into people.
Um, but then also it requires the input from Yale. And then like, you know, you don't, you work incredibly hard. You'd be working in the office longer than me. You know, maybe I was just like, cause I worked in clinical practice before, like I'm always going home in the dark, but you were always there. Uh, that's good at the start.
Cause I think you kind of, um, you learn the ropes, but you're right. I think that once you understand Architecture, It really helps. And I think that that's one of the frustrations we have over recruiters on the market. Look, you've got some really great people, but every recruitment really relies on someone understanding the industry.
So I posted on, uh, he'll laugh. Okay. I will try not to go on a tangent on your podcast while you podcast episode. But last time they had someone really complain about recruiters and they tried to be diplomatic, but then acknowledge the problem. But it's kind of say how to go about it and help the students.
But, um, obviously the perception of recruiters is incredibly mixed and they have this person going, oh, recruit is bad. Check it out. You need to Google. And I was like, I'm a recruiter. I've done that for seven years. Oh yeah. But not yet. It was just other people, you know? And I was like, no, that's not true.
There are many good people out there, but what do you think then? Well, it's good practice for recruiters in your experience. Like, how should you go about. Speaking to clients and candidates, is it, um, and pushing people, you know, is it the, in one camp pushing people use and twisting harms and lying? I don't think it's any of that.
I think it's all about doing things the right way, finding out what people really want. And then, you know, sometimes telling them the truth. I am going Rolfie right now, but you know, if something pops up, I'll let you know. And then also one of the things with our role is sometimes we have to be that person that's given the unfortunate feedback, which kind of sucks.
No one likes doing that. I thought, Ooh, I can't wait to go to work today to like give someone the news. They haven't got a job, but tell me about what you think is good practice. Well, I
like to always think as recruitment as matchmaking, uh, you essentially, you get a brief from a practice. They say, I'm looking for X, Y, and Z.
And you find that person that has X, Y, and Z, but also that person, that person also has to be looking for something that practice can offer as well. Because there are lots of people out there that might fit necessarily the job brief, but that job brief might not necessarily suit what they're looking for.
And so whenever I speak to, um, people, particularly, you know, architects who are looking, so it was important to work out what they're looking for. Right? So you can go through all the questions saying, oh, What have you done, um, you know, um, salary, blah, blah, blah. But it's important to work out what it is that they're looking for.
What kind of practice do they want to work at? Is it a large practice? Does the location matter, maybe flexible working, maybe you're moving because of salary. What prep do I have a practice that can offer you a higher salary for a very similar role? There's a lot of things that you've considered and whilst, you know, I don't claim to be able to tick every single box because it's quite difficult to tick that whole shopping list.
It's important to tick, you know, prioritize the most important bits. Perhaps, for example, it's quite common that a lot of people move practices because they're working weekends. For example, they're working a lot of overtime. And so they're looking for somewhere that can offer, you know, a bit more flexibility, maybe actually finishing up.
It might be nice. So I'll find them somewhere that can actually do that and make that priority. But maybe they also looking for ideally a smaller practice and, um, you know, if I can take that as well, amazing. But as long as I get the work-life balance sorted, we're probably going on to a good win. And so I think it's important just to not just, you know, convince people to take any old job as important to make it a right move for them.
Because every job that you take is a career, a betterment, right? So you're doing it for a career development. Even if it's for things like work life balance, you're still doing it to improve your career and your career prospects. So it's important to take everything, you know, make it important. You don't wanna just move for the sake of moving.
You want to move for the right reasons. And that's why I always try and work with. What are the reasons you're moving so that I can fulfill them. And if I don't have anything for them, you've just got to say it now. You don't want to keep them hanging around. You don't want to be, give them false promises.
It's best to be upfront. And my view is also that a recruiter we're plugging in the gaps, right? You can Google architects jobs and find loads of jobs. That's fine. But those are also a lot of jobs out there that aren't advertised, that aren't as freely, uh, visible. And so I'm there to plug in the gaps and, um, you know, expand your job search.
So I think that's kind of the good practice and the whole honesty. You don't want it to be, um, you know, if, if it's a no, for example, tell them, and then it isn't that if you've got the further feedback and tell them that feedback and the same as well as the CV, if I've got a CV and I don't think it's quite right, they've got the skills there, but the CV needs some feedback.
I'll give them that feedback as well. So that's not only helps them with the jobs that are applying for. But helps them with the jobs that they're applying themselves. And I like to sort of give something back and have that sort of mentoring aspect as well, because I think that's quite important. And then people remember you and they come back as well, which is always nice.
Um, I think that was well said so well done. Uh, if I have my soundboard clap there, but you'll just have to imagine it. Um, well sad. So I kind of, I have mixed feelings because on one hand recruitment, my father, he's listening to this podcast. He probably works. He listened to Stephen grants once and he'd be really interested to hear what we say.
Um, he thinks his definition of recruitment is a necessary evil. Now I don't agree with that quite as much. What I do think though, is that on one hand it's an incredibly stressful job. We are kind of shoot the message that territory. It goes right. It's great. It goes wrong for whatever reasons.
Unfortunately, we're usually there with, I don't know what the expression then oh, would be well or whatever, but we're holding the ball. Right. You know, it's like fingers point to us. So there's a lot of, we have to be really, um, we have to be really sincere to the listeners here. And so while I do think there are good recruiters and, um, I believe the reason why I've done this for seven years is awfully.
I've always tried to do the right thing. And sometimes when things go wrong, which they do, then you own that mistake and you, and you learn from it. But unfortunately, and you'll remember this in the office that we're not going to name names here, where I'm getting with this though, is we have had competitors in recruitment.
We should have been so caring about. Architects careers and, uh, which is really a shame. And, uh, um, yeah, and I've got to point any fingers. Why am slowly carefully picking my words here is that, uh, there's a lot of great recruiters, but then there's a lot of recruiters that I do think I question their true motive, you know, it's like, what do they really want?
So how does someone will distinguish, uh, good intentions while you say recruiter or let's phrase it this way? So you talked about how you want to treat people, but if for anyone listening, who is speaking to recruiters okay. Or choosing who they want to work with, do you have any like practical suggestions and I'll freestyle with you?
Because I think it's a good question. But now with all your experience, and if you were looking for jobs in architecture, what. Would you ask a recruiter? How would you work out if they've got a good intentions and what are the red flags?
Um, I think the red flags is when you don't really get much information about the projects, uh, or the company that you're applying.
Say, for example, if I'm obviously you'll hear the name and everything, but if they not very knowledgeable about the project or certain aspects of the job, for example, um, that can be red flags because it shows that either they are not fully invested in the job, maybe they actually don't have the job brief.
It's more of, they've heard that it's out there. And so they plan to just send you over. That does
happen for not less than it is. It's rare, but there are a few companies that will go, Hey. Yeah, we'd definitely work with those and that. And what that is, is trying to send a speculative application. To win a fee, which kind of sucks actually, because that can stop someone getting an interview.
Ms. Matt isn't there. It kind of happened.
It can happen. Uh, so that could be a red flag. Um, I think it can be quite difficult to, to find a good recruiter, uh, sometimes unless you've heard it from word of mouth, that's probably a good one. I mean, for example, I'm me on my LinkedIn. I've got, I think about 13 recommendations from previous people that I've placed.
Hopefully that's a good indicator that I've had a track record that might be good. Uh, some recruiters, you know, um, won't have that option available was also good to have a look at the websites, uh, that they have, um, But again, that can be influenced by the recruiter. So it's quite, it's a quite difficult question to answer because, you know, at the end of the day, excuse me, if I get CV for, I call them up there speaking, you know, I'm a stranger to them, how they win them over.
And for me, the best way to win them over is to be completely upfront. Um, make the questions I ask are actually diving into the, you know, what they're looking for. And basically you try and personalize it as much as possible because if I'm speaking to someone and I sound like a robot, I'm just asking question after question after question, rather than having a conversation, it's not very good way to, you know, it just sounds like reading off a script and to the sound like I'm actually truly engaged into what you're saying, but if I can have a conversation with someone and develop that relationship of I'm trying to work out what you want, help me understand that.
Then that way it shows that I actually have engaged with you. And then particularly as well, if I suggest some practices that tick those box. So as I'm listening to you, which hopefully would mean that I have your intentions, um, in good faith and good faith. I don't know if that's
right. Yeah, no, I think it's perfect.
And I'll just jump in on that because you're right. I did ask you a large question. I think that's really great advice. Isn't it? I think everyone is like the same as when you're looking for a job, do your research. And I think a good recruiter will have that track record. You know, you can ask them who they've worked with before, the kind of companies, you know, and, uh, more specifically on your LinkedIn.
Okay. Like you said, so we'll, you've got recommendations. I think LinkedIn is a great tool for that to do your research. And also you can do research on the company, can't you? So wherever it's a company like bespoke have good reputation or McDonald and company, which has really good reputation. And I, well, I hope so because I worked there for a while and that reputation I think is very good, so well done.
Well, but you look at the track record don't you, you see what's happened. I think that's a really good style in point. The other thing is I think that it's generally a leap of faith for both parties. So upfront on this thing is the best thing. Sometimes things don't go always the plan. This is life, but there is an element where one of the things, especially if there's any clients listening to this, um, or I suppose all candidates as well, that you, the more you can, you want to, on one hand, be constantly, um, evaluating the recruiter.
You know, if you get any direct flights up and obviously that should kick in, you know, your spidey senses kick in, something's not right. Something's fishy then. Okay. That's fair. That's fair enough. You can kind of retract, but otherwise they kind of, the more you can be upfront in that process, the better there's nothing worse in my opinion.
And I'll ask it to someone what salary they really want or what their true agenda is. And then that goes down the recruitment process. And that turns out not what it is an equally. It's hard for a client, in my opinion, to expect, uh, a recruiter to find the right person. If they haven't got time to speak to them properly, having haven't good time to invite them in the office, because then we're kind of like Lee, we're just throwing CVS around.
It's a matchmaking. And if you don't understand the architectural practice, how can you do a good quality service? And I think that that's incredibly hard, especially when you go into recruitment, asking for a client that because on one hand, maybe the client's been let down before they are here we go.
Another recruiter that see how it goes to send me some CVS and we'll take it from there. So I really understand that frustration, but sadly, I don't think you're going to break that. As cycle easily, unless you let someone in. So it's kind of like you have to build that rapport. And I think the way that we used to go about recruitment, then most of my clients would return clients.
Well, isn't that? And imagine this the same for you now. And that's really valuable and that's built up on trust and what I think we found isn't that well with one or two clients that the more we could get involved, the more we could go to meetings, the more we could influence a few events. I mean, there's one big client.
I'm thinking of, remember where I forgot half the files on the way that we went to these meetings constantly. And we were able to influence the salary for the batter. We didn't actually make any money out of that. That wasn't the point. We were looking for a client's best interests because that is part of the service.
And I think that that really helps to. So do you find, well, the more engagement you can have with the client better. Do you recruit? My Dan is the better informed the decisions are.
Absolutely. I mean, you know, both candidates and people looking for jobs and clients get to see the same from recruiters. You know, they see some bad recruiters.
I see some good recruiters and, but it's difficult, particularly when, for me, if I'm not previously worked for clients, they don't know who I am. It's very difficult to win them over because they've like, like you said, oh no, here's another recruiter we've already got enough. It's very difficult to make yourself stand out and be, you know, um, uh, and be, uh, be better.
So for me, I think it's, you know, there is a, like I said, a leap of faith because you, you know, if you compete, you close yourself from everyone, you're never going to get anywhere in life in general. Uh, could you not be able to build that relationships and you know, all relationships start by people let themselves, you know, um, you know, and the taste a little bit.
Yeah. It's entertaining the idea of it. So, um, but, and then, you know, That's happened. You've then got to make an effort to prove why you are, uh, you know, worth their time. And that's why it's important for me to be as genuine as possible to be as helpful as possible. Go beyond just sending CVS, make suggestions, say what, you know, what you might need instead.
Or maybe for example, I'm struggling to find someone that fits that particular job. Um, sorry, I've got a call coming through. I'm just trying to ignore it. Um, maybe, maybe you've got someone that doesn't necessarily face the same in
Yeah. I would say if you've got someone that doesn't necessarily fit the job, but they couldn't move into that, that's worth the attention of the client.
Uh, and it's, you know, having those conversations, developing those relationships so that you could